Penalty Fares- do they apply any longer?

[whole diary]

[Phil]

By all means come up with one and e-mail it to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) though, btline!

Oooh can I have a go please?

"PLEASE NOTE THERE ARE NO PENALTY FARES ANYWHERE ON THE FIRST GREAT WESTERN NETWORK" 

[inspector_blakey]

Sorry btline, but on this occasion you've had a bit of a froth about nothing. It's abundantly clear both in the conditions of carriage and on station posters that two conditions must be satisfied in order for a penalty fare to be issued: (a) you must join from a penalty fares station and (b) it must be on a penalty fares train.

Let's look at three scenarios.

1. I board an FGW^▸ (First Great Western) service at Oxford, heading to Paddington. I have not bought a ticket; the ticket office is open.
I am liable to a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) here, because Oxford is a penalty fares station, and PFs apply on FGW services to Paddington from Oxford.

2. I board an XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service at Oxford, heading to Banbury. I have not bought a ticket; the ticket office is open.
I am not liable to a PF in this situation; although I joined the train at a penalty fares station, PFs do not apply on XC services. I am therefore liable to be charged the standard single fare to my destination only.

3. I board an FGW service to Paddington at Radley. I do not have a ticket.
I am not liable for a PF. Although I have boarded a penalty fares train, Radley is not a penalty fares station (indeed, it is unstaffed and has no ticktet machines). I am therefore liable to pay only the cheapeat "walk-up" fare (with a railcard discount, if I have it) for my journey.

Something tells me it won't, but I do hope this clears things up a little...

[paul7575]

At least I can read and understand the map! And the prose on the posters/leaflets infer that the train is a penalty fare train throughout its whole journey - fact. If that is not the case, then the posters need to be re-written.

It's not what I infer from reading it. Like other people, to me it reads when a train is passing through stations in a penalty fares zone then you can be penalty fared.

As a contrary example, take Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton. Definitely an operational PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) area.

However all the requisite station notices include the caveat that 'Penalty Fares do not apply to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services at this station'.

Which causes no end of amusing conversations at the barriers at Southampton apparently, when the local evaders claim to have just come in from Millbrook on an FGW service. 

Paul

[Mookiemoo]

As a contrary example, take Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton. Definitely an operational PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) area.

However all the requisite station notices include the caveat that 'Penalty Fares do not apply to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services at this station'.

Which causes no end of amusing conversations at the barriers at Southampton apparently, when the local evaders claim to have just come in from Millbrook on an FGW service. 

And if some one genuinely has?

[devon_metro]

Don't think fgw stop milbrook anymore!

As a contrary example, take Portsmouth Harbour to Southampton. Definitely an operational PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) area.

However all the requisite station notices include the caveat that 'Penalty Fares do not apply to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services at this station'.

Which causes no end of amusing conversations at the barriers at Southampton apparently, when the local evaders claim to have just come in from Millbrook on an FGW service. 

And if some one genuinely has?

[paul7575]

Don't think fgw stop milbrook anymore!

Did they ever?

Paul

[Tim]

However all the requisite station notices include the caveat that 'Penalty Fares do not apply to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services at this station'.

Which causes no end of amusing conversations at the barriers at Southampton apparently

This is the sort of confusion, hassle and argument that would be avioded if penalty fares covered all trains in the whole country.   

It seems a bit daft for DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to be ultra strict about the conditions for penalty fares and yet allow TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to charge full open fares only to ticketless travellers outside of PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) zones which can be just as punative finacially without any oversight.  It also amazes me that a TOC cannot be bothered to pull out all the stops and properly implement an initaiative aimed at cutting down evasion. 

Ideally you need to be harsh on those who abuse the system but construct the system itself to be as simple and straightforward and as fair as possible.  The system then wins respect and more people abide by it and those who don't have fewer options to argue the toss about. 

[Btline]

This system is ridiculous.

Hartlebury, near Worcester, is in the Penalty Fare zone. But it has NO ticket facilities at all. (not even permit to travels)

And I still argue my original point. The poster says, if your train passes through the area in the map, you are on a penalty fare train and penalty fares apply. That is completely non ambigous to me!

Therefore, someone from Hereford can be penalty fared on a LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) service, because although the zone ends at Worcester, the train passes through the area later!

[Tim]

Hartlebury, near Worcester, is in the Penalty Fare zone. But it has NO ticket facilities at all. (not even permit to travels)

Not sure this is a problem in itself.  If you are unable to buy a ticket you shouldn't be issued with a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare).  Hence my contension that you could and should make every train in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) a penalty fare train, but obviously only PF passengers who board at a station where they could have brought a ticket

[JayMac]

This system is ridiculous.

Hartlebury, near Worcester, is in the Penalty Fare zone. But it has NO ticket facilities at all. (not even permit to travels)

And I still argue my original point. The poster says, if your train passes through the area in the map, you are on a penalty fare train and penalty fares apply. That is completely non ambigous to me!

Therefore, someone from Hereford can be penalty fared on a LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) service, because although the zone ends at Worcester, the train passes through the area later!

And equally unambiguously. on NRES^▸ (National Rail Enquiry Service)....."Penalty Fares do not apply when travelling from Hartlebury". I suggest, Btline that you write to LM and ask them to remove the posters from Hartlebury. That's if they are there in the first place, of course.

[JayMac]

Oh, and equally unambiguously, LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise)'s Penalty Fare leaflet makes it quite clear, on the accompanying map that PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'s do not apply from Hartlebury and other unmanned, un-TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'d, stations on the LM network.

http://www.londonmidland.com/tickets-and-fares/penalty-fares/ click on the hypertext link "Full details of our Penalty Fare scheme......." to bring up the leaflet pdf.

[Btline]

What are you on about? Hartlebury does not have the posters, because it has no facilities for buying tickets, so penalty fares don't apply! Why would they have the posters?

However, these posters are on the trains, and they make it quite clear.

I see that you completely ignored the Hereford part of my post, where my argument comes through!

The poster says, if your train passes through the area in the map, you are on a penalty fare train and penalty fares apply. That is completely non ambigous to me!

Therefore, someone from Hereford can be penalty fared on a LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) service, because although the zone ends at Worcester, the train passes through the area later!

[JayMac]

I ignored the Hereford bit because PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare) on LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) services out to Hereford are being introduced in September. Of course the poster I read on Hereford Station could've been wrong!

[TerminalJunkie]

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=6#a1022

[JayMac]

I concede, if the on-train posters do not have the same map as the leaflet then that may lead the uninformed to think that you can be PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d from an un-staffed, un-TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'d, un-PERTISed station like Hartlebury. Fair enough. Write to LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) and ask them to change the on train posters.