Penalty Fares- do they apply any longer?

[whole diary]

[devon_metro]

You can only be Penalty fared if you join from a penalty fare station, yes, a train passing through a penalty fare area is a Penalty fare train WHILST PASSING THROUGH THE AREA but only for people boarding at a penalty fare station. i.e. if you arrive at Birmingham New Street having travelled on a LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) service from Walsall then you will be PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d, however, if you were on that same train having travelled from Rugely then you cant be PF'd as Rugely is (well, was last time I was there) not a PF station.

It would hardly be fair to PF someone who had joined from a non PF station where there would be no notices etc.

If this is the case, then the posters need to be re-written!

WHY!

The point is, buy a bloody ticket then you don't need to flap about the technicalities of a poster!

[Btline]

The posters also state:

"if your train passes through a penalty fare area, then you're travelling on a penalty fare train and penalty fares apply."

That's what needs to be changed!

[JayMac]

Anyone found a picture of a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) poster online yet? I bet you're all looking

[vacman]

The posters also state:

"if your train passes through a penalty fare area, then you're travelling on a penalty fare train and penalty fares apply."

That's what needs to be changed!

YES, IF YOU JOIN FROM A PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) STATION!!!!!!!!!!! and they show non-PF stations on the same sodding map!

[Btline]

they show non-PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) stations on the same sodding map!

No they don't. The "map" shows the "penalty fare network".

[TerminalJunkie]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that you if you gave a hoop to Btline he would be able to grab the wrong end of it?

[grahame]

It would hardly be fair to PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) someone who had joined from a non PF station where there would be no notices etc.

WHY!

The point is, buy a bloody ticket then you don't need to flap about the technicalities of a poster!
If this is the case, then the posters need to be re-written!

Widening the discussion, somewhat ... Vacman's post struck me as I read earlier in the thread, and I though to myself "Since when was fairness a measure of how the rules were written / fares set?". I certainly agree that it wouldn't be fair ... but that's no proof it won't be done.

Btline says "buy a bl**dy ticket".  Yes - if the bl**dy TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) provides you with the facilities to do so.   To quote a member of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff who posted here in the past, "you may only join a train without a ticket if you do so at a station where there is a non working ticket vending machine, and there are no staff on duty".  That is more draconian than the National rail conditions and stated by one of the staff who's job it is to enforce the rules. It means that at Avoncliff and Melksham and Combe and a host of others, you should buy a ticket in advance.  And for an advanced ticket from Melksham, bought on line just prior to 18:00 the previous day, I have been told to collect from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at Chippenham or Bath ... prior to starting my journey!  Joining a train these days at stations like this, I approach the conductor from the platform and ask if I may join the train and buy from him on the journey - 'negotiate a dispensation' if you like, and have never been refused.  It's usually a friendly "yes - of course - there's no way to buy a ticket here otherwise" ... but one day, no doubt, I'll come across some flaming conductor who won't allow it.

I know that's away from penalty fares, but it's still a question of charging full fare rather than off peak for something that Jo Public can do nothing about ... rather like the Gatwick fares I looked up for when I flew back in the other week ... 42 pounds to Chippenham, or 73.50 (after a wait of several hours) all the way to Melksham. Fair?  You must be kidding!

[Tim]

Stupid question my why not make every train a nd every station in the whole country a penalty fare zone.  From the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) point of view would there be any disadvantage?

[Cornish Traveller]

Stupid question my why not make every train a nd every station in the whole country a penalty fare zone.  From the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) point of view would there be any disadvantage?

Yes - TOC would get lots of appeals against PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) from those joining at stations with no ticket issuing facilities, DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) are very strict about Penalty Fare Schemes (they even get shirty about No. of Penalty Fare Warnings not printed by guards when selling tickets on board on PF areas)

[Tim]

Stupid question my why not make every train a nd every station in the whole country a penalty fare zone.  From the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) point of view would there be any disadvantage?

TOC would get lots of appeals against PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) from those joining at stations with no ticket issuing facilities,

surely this would only happen if ticket inspectors were wrongly issuing lots of PF from epopel joining at those stations?

[Btline]

It would hardly be fair to PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) someone who had joined from a non PF station where there would be no notices etc.

WHY!

The point is, buy a bloody ticket then you don't need to flap about the technicalities of a poster!
If this is the case, then the posters need to be re-written!

Widening the discussion, somewhat ... Vacman's post struck me as I read earlier in the thread, and I though to myself "Since when was fairness a measure of how the rules were written / fares set?". I certainly agree that it wouldn't be fair ... but that's no proof it won't be done.

Btline says "buy a bl**dy ticket".  Yes - if the bl**dy TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) provides you with the facilities to do so.   To quote a member of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff who posted here in the past, "you may only join a train without a ticket if you do so at a station where there is a non working ticket vending machine, and there are no staff on duty".  That is more draconian than the National rail conditions and stated by one of the staff who's job it is to enforce the rules. It means that at Avoncliff and Melksham and Combe and a host of others, you should buy a ticket in advance.  And for an advanced ticket from Melksham, bought on line just prior to 18:00 the previous day, I have been told to collect from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at Chippenham or Bath ... prior to starting my journey!  Joining a train these days at stations like this, I approach the conductor from the platform and ask if I may join the train and buy from him on the journey - 'negotiate a dispensation' if you like, and have never been refused.  It's usually a friendly "yes - of course - there's no way to buy a ticket here otherwise" ... but one day, no doubt, I'll come across some flaming conductor who won't allow it.

I know that's away from penalty fares, but it's still a question of charging full fare rather than off peak for something that Jo Public can do nothing about ... rather like the Gatwick fares I looked up for when I flew back in the other week ... 42 pounds to Chippenham, or 73.50 (after a wait of several hours) all the way to Melksham. Fair?  You must be kidding!

NB: Vacman said "buy a bl***y ticket, not me!

[Btline]

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that you if you gave a hoop to Btline he would be able to grab the wrong end of it?

At least I can read and understand the map! And the prose on the posters/leaflets infer that the train is a penalty fare train throughout its whole journey - fact. If that is not the case, then the posters need to be re-written.

[devon_metro]

It would hardly be fair to PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) someone who had joined from a non PF station where there would be no notices etc.

WHY!

The point is, buy a bloody ticket then you don't need to flap about the technicalities of a poster!
If this is the case, then the posters need to be re-written!

Widening the discussion, somewhat ... Vacman's post struck me as I read earlier in the thread, and I though to myself "Since when was fairness a measure of how the rules were written / fares set?". I certainly agree that it wouldn't be fair ... but that's no proof it won't be done.

Btline says "buy a bl**dy ticket".  Yes - if the bl**dy TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) provides you with the facilities to do so.   To quote a member of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staff who posted here in the past, "you may only join a train without a ticket if you do so at a station where there is a non working ticket vending machine, and there are no staff on duty".  That is more draconian than the National rail conditions and stated by one of the staff who's job it is to enforce the rules. It means that at Avoncliff and Melksham and Combe and a host of others, you should buy a ticket in advance.  And for an advanced ticket from Melksham, bought on line just prior to 18:00 the previous day, I have been told to collect from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at Chippenham or Bath ... prior to starting my journey!  Joining a train these days at stations like this, I approach the conductor from the platform and ask if I may join the train and buy from him on the journey - 'negotiate a dispensation' if you like, and have never been refused.  It's usually a friendly "yes - of course - there's no way to buy a ticket here otherwise" ... but one day, no doubt, I'll come across some flaming conductor who won't allow it.

I know that's away from penalty fares, but it's still a question of charging full fare rather than off peak for something that Jo Public can do nothing about ... rather like the Gatwick fares I looked up for when I flew back in the other week ... 42 pounds to Chippenham, or 73.50 (after a wait of several hours) all the way to Melksham. Fair?  You must be kidding!

NB: Vacman said "buy a bl***y ticket, not me!

No, sorry, that was me. I was using a mobile device so couldn't correct my post after i typed into your quote without spending about an hour doing it I shall go and correct it now for clarity.

[grahame]

No, sorry, that was me. I was using a mobile device so couldn't correct my post after i typed into your quote without spending about an hour doing it I shall go and correct it now for clarity.

No problem / I took the view that it was an appropriate use of a mild expletive in an extreme circumstance - and appropriate to a thread which is discussing fare and penalty fairness.  I really fail to see (can anyone explain) why I should not be able to purchase an advanced purchase fare and not be allowed to join at a station where there are no facilities to collect my ticket without having to make an extra journey, first, to a station that has those facilities or buying it long enough in advance to have it posted ...

But, technically, I should have swooped on "the b word", especially as so many of our members here are bemoaning the inconsistency of rail staff at times, and telling about how frustrating that is. Indeed, I have recently frustrated one member enough for him to have recently written "You are possibly the worse forum administrator I have ever come across." and "and a lier to arrogant to admit they are wrong".   Nope - I shouldn't have allowed the "b" word.  Sorry I did - let's move on, and let's all avoid such words 

[IndustryInsider]

At least I can read and understand the map! And the prose on the posters/leaflets infer that the train is a penalty fare train throughout its whole journey - fact. If that is not the case, then the posters need to be re-written.

It's not what I infer from reading it. Like other people, to me it reads when a train is passing through stations in a penalty fares zone then you can be penalty fared. I can see how, technically, you could argue that it could mean what you're suggesting, but whether it is in any way deceiving or accidentally or deliberately going to cause lots of anguish and complaints I doubt very much. As others have said, after all, people should buy a ticket before they board whenever facilities are available - if somebody is making a single journey in west Cornwall and they misinterpret a poster they've seen at another station or in a leaflet they've picked up from another station and feel obliged to buy a ticket from the ticket office instead of chancing it, then that's all good by me!

The English language is a bitch to word properly on occasions, and to be crystal clear about what you mean sometimes takes up more space than is available on a poster, and using a longer sentence loses the impact over a shorter one. By all means come up with one and e-mail it to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) though, btline!