Penalty Fares- do they apply any longer?

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

No, but if your train passes through a penalty fare area, it is a penalty fare train (as it says on the posters).

It doesn't matter where you get on and off.

Kinda depends on what the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) have specified in their submission for Penalty Fares enforcement to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about). Penalty fares can be applied to trains and/or stations. It appears that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (from the wording on their website) have applied Penalty Fares rules to their stations only. Maybe the signs are part of a job lot and contradict this.

Contradictary information given to the travelling public from a TOC? Surely not......

[willc]

There are some lovely maps of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) zones here, including the Bristol area for if/when that is activated http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Documents/Custom/Penalty%20Fares%20maps.pdf

[JayMac]

And here, for btline's benefit is the specific part of the Penalty Fares rules from DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s website. This covers precisely why a penalty fare may not be issued on one part or more of a route. Or for that matter on a train travelling that route.

Penalty fares trains
4.3 'Penalty fares trains' are the train services for which penalty fares may be charged. A train operator will normally name as penalty fares trains all the trains which it runs within a particular geographical area or on a particular route or routes. A train service does not have to be a penalty fares train for the whole of its journey. It will be a penalty fares train while it is within the specified area or travelling over the specified section of route, and will not be a penalty fares train on the part of its journey outside this area or section of route. In deciding which trains should be penalty fares trains, an operator should take account of the geography of the train service, the ticket facilities available at the stations which will be served and whether the area covered can be easily explained to passengers.

Penalty fares stations
4.4 Passengers on a penalty fares train may only be charged a penalty fare if they got on that train at a station which has been named as a 'penalty fares station' by the relevant penalty fares scheme. At these stations, penalty fares warning notices must be displayed and sufficient ticket facilities provided.

[Btline]

Yes, I know about maps with the "penalty fare" area on!

But I have seen posters, adverts and leaflets with the National Rail penalty fare logo on (i.e. offical and national) that state "if your train passes through a penalty fare area, then you're travelling on a penalty fare train and penalty fares apply."

Thus if you travel btw Redruth and Cambourne without a ticket you could get a penalty fare. (as the train passes through the zone later in the journey).

[JayMac]

Yes, I know about maps with the "penalty fare" area on!

But I have seen posters, adverts and leaflets with the National Rail penalty fare logo on (i.e. offical and national) that state "if your train passes through a penalty fare area, then you're travelling on a penalty fare train and penalty fares apply."

Thus if you travel btw Redruth and Cambourne without a ticket you could get a penalty fare. (as the train passes through the zone later in the journey).

No, sorry Btline, as the rules I quoted state, quite umabiguously (unusual, granted!) this is not the case. 

[Btline]

It's not on for the dft website to say one thing, and NR^» (Network Rail - home page) to say another.

What makes you sure the dft website is correct?

[devon_metro]

Yes, I know about maps with the "penalty fare" area on!

But I have seen posters, adverts and leaflets with the National Rail penalty fare logo on (i.e. offical and national) that state "if your train passes through a penalty fare area, then you're travelling on a penalty fare train and penalty fares apply."

Thus if you travel btw Redruth and Cambourne without a ticket you could get a penalty fare. (as the train passes through the zone later in the journey).

No, I'm afraid you are wrong.

The penalty fare posters are the same across the whole network, so they are a summary. You won't find a penalty fare poster at Redruth

[Btline]

The penalty fare posters are the same across the whole network...

Then they will say what I have said! They'll have a mini map with the penalty fare area and say "as above".

Sorry, I need to get to the bottom of this! It's not consistent!

[JayMac]

It's not on for the dft website to say one thing, and NR^» (Network Rail - home page) to say another.

What makes you sure the dft website is correct?

Um...... it is on the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) website. http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=4

And whilst I am suspicious of Govt depts, I believe this is correct because it is in the same section as details on the legislation covering Penalty Fares

[Chris from Nailsea]

A couple of points from me, if I may?

The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) are the ones who set the rules - NR^» (Network Rail - home page) and the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) simply (perhaps too simply?) carry them out.

For example, Nailsea & Backwell platforms have had these standard 'penalty fares' posters displayed since long before the first of our ill-fated ticket machines was even installed - and we're still not in a penalty fare zone.

No, Btline, it's not consistent - but then with our railways, since when has it ever been so? 

[Btline]

Then the public, who read the posters when they arrive at the station/ get on the train, are being misinformed. The posters say on thing, the DFT^▸ (Department for Transport) another.

[vacman]

You can only be Penalty fared if you join from a penalty fare station, yes, a train passing through a penalty fare area is a Penalty fare train WHILST PASSING THROUGH THE AREA but only for people boarding at a penalty fare station. i.e. if you arrive at Birmingham New Street having travelled on a LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) service from Walsall then you will be PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d, however, if you were on that same train having travelled from Rugely then you cant be PF'd as Rugely is (well, was last time I was there) not a PF station.

It would hardly be fair to PF someone who had joined from a non PF station where there would be no notices etc.

[JayMac]

It's not on for the dft website to say one thing, and NR^» (Network Rail - home page) to say another.

Sorry Btline, I misread this when I quoted it. Thought you were saying the info wasn't on DfTs^» (Department for Transport - about) website. Apologies.

[Btline]

You can only be Penalty fared if you join from a penalty fare station, yes, a train passing through a penalty fare area is a Penalty fare train WHILST PASSING THROUGH THE AREA but only for people boarding at a penalty fare station. i.e. if you arrive at Birmingham New Street having travelled on a LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) service from Walsall then you will be PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d, however, if you were on that same train having travelled from Rugely then you cant be PF'd as Rugely is (well, was last time I was there) not a PF station.

It would hardly be fair to PF someone who had joined from a non PF station where there would be no notices etc.

If this is the case, then the posters need to be re-written!

[vacman]

You can only be Penalty fared if you join from a penalty fare station, yes, a train passing through a penalty fare area is a Penalty fare train WHILST PASSING THROUGH THE AREA but only for people boarding at a penalty fare station. i.e. if you arrive at Birmingham New Street having travelled on a LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) service from Walsall then you will be PF^▸ (Penalty Fare)'d, however, if you were on that same train having travelled from Rugely then you cant be PF'd as Rugely is (well, was last time I was there) not a PF station.

It would hardly be fair to PF someone who had joined from a non PF station where there would be no notices etc.

If this is the case, then the posters need to be re-written!

What are you on about?

the posters at the stations read "Warning, have you paid? please buy your ticket before you travel or you may have to pay a penalty fare at least ^20 or twice the full standard single to the next station, which ever is the greater", these posters are only dispalyed at PF stations, the posters on the trains show a map and show PF and non PF stations and says something along the lines of "if travelling from the stations shown on this map then you are travelling on a penalty fare train................etc, etc"