Why are train companies continueing to rip off the public with train fares?

[whole diary]

[moonrakerz]

Perhaps you can answer this question for me Moonrakerz.  If a Bristol-Cheltenham, and Cheltenham-Birmingham return works out in total as ^25.40.  Can you give any good valid reasons as to why then do Arriva Cross Country charge ^42.10 for a Bristol-Birmingham return???

No I can't, someone in possession of a lot more information than you or I, about costings, calculated these fares. How about one possibility ?
Someone noticed that there were many more passenger journeys made between Bristol and and Birmingham and the reduced fares to/from Cheltenham were to attract more custom on those routes. Any loss of revenue on through passengers "splitting" was more than made up by the extra traffic gained on the other two routes.

Your argument loses more credibility as it progresses. I can buy a can of baked beans from my local Morrisons for 35p, the same can of beans is 47p in my local One Stop. Who is ripping me off ?
Following your logic One Stop is. It is highly likely, however, that Morrisons are actually making more profit per can than One Stop, due to their much increased buying power. Using your logic all beans should be at 35p. Therefore the One Stop corner shop cannot make a profit and closes down. I can no longer buy a can of beans at 10 at night (Morrisons shut at apart from which, now that Morrisons have the monopoly their beans now cost 40p.
Very useful !


The government should do something about it .................................................

[XPT]

Well I'm not going to argue you with any further.   We are not talking about different shops selling cans of beans at different prices.  We are talking about train fares.  Fares from A-C(i.e Bristol-Birmingham) should be no more expensive in total than A-B and B-C fares.  Simple as that.

More and more of the travelling British public NEED to know about this split ticketing sooner rather than later.  To get the cheaper fares they are entitled to.

I'll personaly stick with the Bristol-Bromsgrove/Bromsgrove-Birmingham(thanks to Bignosemac's tip) to get a return to Birmingham for ^15.30 return.  Arriva Cross Country can shove their stupid ^42.10 fare.

[Mookiemoo]

Well I'm not going to argue you with any further.   We are not talking about different shops selling cans of beans at different prices.  We are talking about train fares.  Fares from A-C(i.e Bristol-Birmingham) should be no more expensive in total than A-B and B-C fares.  Simple as that.

More and more of the travelling British public NEED to know about this split ticketing sooner rather than later.  To get the cheaper fares they are entitled to.

I'll personaly stick with the Bristol-Bromsgrove/Bromsgrove-Birmingham(thanks to Bignosemac's tip) to get a return to Birmingham for ^15.30 return.  Arriva Cross Country can shove their stupid ^42.10 fare.

I would tend to agree with you - EXCEPT - the end result will not be reducing the through walk on fare - it will be to  increase the splits  until it matches the 42.10 through

happened to me earlier this year when I used to split at oxford

Frankly, I'd rather keep the loop hole than have all the fares rise to the through ticket equivalent.

[paul7575]

Another example of ridiculously over-priced fares.

I was at Temple Meads last week collecting my pre-booked tickets.  There was a young lady in front of me, and I saw on the screen that she was getting a return to Sheffield.  The cheapest option at that time(before 8am) was a staggering ^135 Anytime Return!!!!  To which she did actually select and pay.   If she had booked in advance she could have got it considerably cheaper, probably cheaper still if she split the tickets Bristol-Cheltenham, Cheltenham-Birmingham, Birmingham-Sheffield.   However, even not booking in advance the total cost of a Bristol-Sheffield day return leaving Bristol at 8am can work out at around ^75.   Which isn't exactly fantastic value, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than the Bristol-Sheffield return.  So the Bristol-Sheffield PEAK "walk on" fare should be priced accordingly at (approx) ^75 and not ^135. 

XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) long distance fares are also weird because Bristol (and Reading) are the southern boundary of their 'Offpeak' restrictions. Start at Taunton and the Offpeak is available all day to stations Derby (IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly)) and beyond...

Paul

[grahame]

I don't think it's actually been answered on this thread ... so here goes.    The reason that A to B plus B to C  fares (added together) are often cheaper that A to C is because the  A to B and / or B to C fares often have origins back in local fares, whereas A to C fares are often "Intercity" - fares that were premium priced when those super new 125 m.ph. trains were introduced!

Didcot, Worcester, even Exeter via Salisbury are old "Network South East" lines.  But Swindon was never in Network South East and was always InterCity.

I am not going to be drawn into which fare is the "right" one, save to confirm that you can go from A to C using an A to B and a B to C ticket, provided that you train stops at B (there are some special circumstances such as one of the tickets being a season ticket when you can use a train that does NOT stop at B).  But I will say that if you tell the bloke behind the counter that you are going on the next Chippenham train (one that calls at Didcot) and ask him what the cheapest way to do it is, he is likely to lie to you and sell you a P to C and not a P to D followed by a D to C.  That's not intended to be a criticism of the bloke - my understanding is that the staff are instructed not to offer split ticketing, and I can help thinking that if they DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) try to be helpful in this way, a lot of people would think they were being ripped off.

I agree with FallenAngel that from a purely personal viewpoint, it would be a shame to loose all these ways of getting affordable travel ... and that any 'corrections' are likely to result in the average payment made rising; whether that would be compensated by a loss of traffic is a moot point.  I remain much happier buying a Melksham - Trowbridge followed by a Trowbridge - Waterloo (just over 30 pounds) rather than a Melksham - Waterloo (74 pounds), but that's a hard combination / situation to explain to visitors!

[The Grecian]

One thing I've noticed is that in the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) region particularly the off-peak day returns are much cheaper than off-peak returns (Cheap Day v Saver in old money). E.g. Exeter - Plymouth is 7.50 day return compared to 14.50 monthly, which is only 30p cheaper than 2 singles. FGW have reduced many 'local' fares though.

I think that's noticeable across Intercity areas - if you make a day trip where day returns aren't available, buy day returns between stopping stations i.e. where trains actually stop and you can save money. If you travel on a saver style basis, the savings are far less. I managed Bristol-Sheffield earlier this year for ^30 with a YPR splitting it 4 times and Bristol-Macclesfield last year splitting 3 times for ^27 (day tripping to watch the mighty Exeter City trounce Macclesfield/clinch promotion!). That wasn't booking in advance but paying on the day. There are certainly good places to split tickets - Bristol-London is cheaper if you split it at Didcot as you can buy 2 day returns (but make sure you get the Didcot stopper or it'll cost you a lot more).

I think the rule is the booking clerk is under no obligation to tell you about cheaper split tickets. If you ask about a specific fare however, they are obliged to sell you it. I just think of it as a reward for doing the research.

[Ollie]

I think the rule is the booking clerk is under no obligation to tell you about cheaper split tickets. If you ask about a specific fare however, they are obliged to sell you it. I just think of it as a reward for doing the research.

Correct

[vacman]

I think it's important to remember one thing about split fares, it's best just to keep quite about it and reap the benefits! because if the train companies "do something about it" then they're not going to reduce the end to end fare, they will increase the inbetween fares!
A good example of how to save nearly ^45.00 on Penzance-Birmingham, the SOS fare is ^105.00, but (off-Peak mind) if you do a Pnz-Exd CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')), Exd-Tau CDS, Tau-Bri CDS, Bri-Cnm SDS and Cnm-Bhm CDS then it works out at ^60.90, every direct train stops at all those stations so its valid.

One point about the Bristol-Bromsgrove-Birmingham split, the train must stop at Bromsgrove for the ticket to be valid, do any AXC^» (Arriva Cross Country - about) services between Bristol and Brum stop there???

[JayMac]

I think it's important to remember one thing about split fares, it's best just to keep quite about it and reap the benefits! because if the train companies "do something about it" then they're not going to reduce the end to end fare, they will increase the inbetween fares!
A good example of how to save nearly ^45.00 on Penzance-Birmingham, the SOS fare is ^105.00, but (off-Peak mind) if you do a Pnz-Exd CDS^▸ (Off Peak Day Single [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')), Exd-Tau CDS, Tau-Bri CDS, Bri-Cnm SDS and Cnm-Bhm CDS then it works out at ^60.90, every direct train stops at all those stations so its valid.

One point about the Bristol-Bromsgrove-Birmingham split, the train must stop at Bromsgrove for the ticket to be valid, do any AXC^» (Arriva Cross Country - about) services between Bristol and Brum stop there???

Re: Bristol-Bromsgrove-Birmingham. I only pointed out that you can return from Brum in the evening peak with a split CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) on two AXC services, changing at Cheltenham. 1730 and 1830 both stop at Bromsgrove. No such luck on the out journey. You have to go via Worcester for that.

[readytostart]

Perhaps you can answer this question for me Moonrakerz.  If a Bristol-Cheltenham, and Cheltenham-Birmingham return works out in total as ^25.40.  Can you give any good valid reasons as to why then do Arriva Cross Country charge ^42.10 for a Bristol-Birmingham return???

This route has been quoted in the railway press on many occasions, presumably because the stopping patten always includes a call at Cheltenham.

On privatisation the BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) - BHM fare was priced by Virgin, the BRI to Chelt by Wales and West and Chelt to BHM by Central trains. Over the coming years the companies altered their prices by varying amounts leading to the difference in prices. AXC^» (Arriva Cross Country - about) has inherited the old Virgin fares, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) now have the old wales and west fares and (AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know)) LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) now price the old Central fare.

One point to note is that the split tickets were priced as stopping services by the operator wheras Virgin priced higher due to the Express nature of it's services and increased operating costs, through on board catering, higher fuel costs due to express running and also higher charges for the leasing of rolling stock.

[Trowres]

Perhaps you can answer this question for me Moonrakerz.  If a Bristol-Cheltenham, and Cheltenham-Birmingham return works out in total as ^25.40.  Can you give any good valid reasons as to why then do Arriva Cross Country charge ^42.10 for a Bristol-Birmingham return???

This route has been quoted in the railway press on many occasions, presumably because the stopping patten always includes a call at Cheltenham.

On privatisation the BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) - BHM fare was priced by Virgin, the BRI to Chelt by Wales and West and Chelt to BHM by Central trains. Over the coming years the companies altered their prices by varying amounts leading to the difference in prices. AXC^» (Arriva Cross Country - about) has inherited the old Virgin fares, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) now have the old wales and west fares and (AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know)) LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) now price the old Central fare.

One point to note is that the split tickets were priced as stopping services by the operator wheras Virgin priced higher due to the Express nature of it's services and increased operating costs, through on board catering, higher fuel costs due to express running and also higher charges for the leasing of rolling stock.

I have just checked, and the "split fares cheaper" anomaly for Birmingham goes back to BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) days (I checked the 1991 fare manual)

[XPT]

Another example of ridiculously over-priced fares.

I was at Temple Meads last week collecting my pre-booked tickets.  There was a young lady in front of me, and I saw on the screen that she was getting a return to Sheffield.  The cheapest option at that time(before 8am) was a staggering ^135 Anytime Return!!!!  To which she did actually select and pay.   If she had booked in advance she could have got it considerably cheaper, probably cheaper still if she split the tickets Bristol-Cheltenham, Cheltenham-Birmingham, Birmingham-Sheffield.   However, even not booking in advance the total cost of a Bristol-Sheffield day return leaving Bristol at 8am can work out at around ^75.   Which isn't exactly fantastic value, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than the Bristol-Sheffield return.  So the Bristol-Sheffield PEAK "walk on" fare should be priced accordingly at (approx) ^75 and not ^135.  Passengers should not be paying over the odds for journeys when it is not necessary.

I have looked at this again, and the total journey can work out at ^61.70 return.  Via a series of four sets of return tickets.

Bristol-Cheltenham
Cheltenham-Birmingham
Birmingham-Derby
Derby-Sheffield

This price is based on leaving Bristol on the 0800 service, where the return fare to Cheltenham is ^13.40 at this time of day.  Get the 0830 departure and the Bristol-Cheltenham return fare drops to just ^7.40 return.  Total cost Bristol-Sheffield return just ^55.70 return.   That's one hell of a saving on the through Bristol-Sheffield return fare of ^135!   Save even more by getting the 0900 departure, and the total cost is right down to ^46.90.   These fares can be achived at short notice, by booking via the internet on the night before travel.  Can still be achieved on the day(for a morning departure), but it would mean getting out at the split ticket destinations, buying the next ticket and waiting for the next train.

[XPT]

This route has been quoted in the railway press on many occasions, presumably because the stopping patten always includes a call at Cheltenham.

On privatisation the BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) - BHM fare was priced by Virgin, the BRI to Chelt by Wales and West and Chelt to BHM by Central trains. Over the coming years the companies altered their prices by varying amounts leading to the difference in prices. AXC^» (Arriva Cross Country - about) has inherited the old Virgin fares, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) now have the old wales and west fares and (AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know)) LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) now price the old Central fare.

One point to note is that the split tickets were priced as stopping services by the operator wheras Virgin priced higher due to the Express nature of it's services and increased operating costs, through on board catering, higher fuel costs due to express running and also higher charges for the leasing of rolling stock.

Yeah I guess that explains it.    It's still very expensive though nevertheless.  ^42 for a day return from Bristol-Birmingham.  WHen one considers it's just about double the distance of Bristol-Cardiff which is priced very reasonably at ^8.80 return.     The expensive fares though do put a lot of people off travelling by train.   For instance I was at work several years back(shortly before I knew about the split ticketting technique) and a group of girls wanted to goto Birmingham for the day on a weekday.   When they enquired about the trainfare on the phone and found out it was ^33 return(even booking in advance) they could hardly believe it.  They didn't want to pay that sort of money.  And they ended up going by coach instead, which was a fair amount cheaper.    So Virgin Trains lost the revenue of these group of girls because their fares were just too expensive.  Whereas if they were priced a bit more sensibly(i.e. ^25 return back then(2003)), then maybe they could have got the bookings from those group of girls, and indeed many other passengers.  If their fares were dropped to more sensible levels, then maybe the train companies could actually earn more revenue than they do now??

[JayMac]

Another example of ridiculously over-priced fares.

I was at Temple Meads last week collecting my pre-booked tickets.  There was a young lady in front of me, and I saw on the screen that she was getting a return to Sheffield.  The cheapest option at that time(before 8am) was a staggering ^135 Anytime Return!!!!  To which she did actually select and pay.   If she had booked in advance she could have got it considerably cheaper, probably cheaper still if she split the tickets Bristol-Cheltenham, Cheltenham-Birmingham, Birmingham-Sheffield.   However, even not booking in advance the total cost of a Bristol-Sheffield day return leaving Bristol at 8am can work out at around ^75.   Which isn't exactly fantastic value, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than the Bristol-Sheffield return.  So the Bristol-Sheffield PEAK "walk on" fare should be priced accordingly at (approx) ^75 and not ^135.  Passengers should not be paying over the odds for journeys when it is not necessary.

I have looked at this again, and the total journey can work out at ^61.70 return.  Via a series of four sets of return tickets.

Bristol-Cheltenham
Cheltenham-Birmingham
Birmingham-Derby
Derby-Sheffield

This price is based on leaving Bristol on the 0800 service, where the return fare to Cheltenham is ^13.40 at this time of day.  Get the 0830 departure and the Bristol-Cheltenham return fare drops to just ^7.40 return.  Total cost Bristol-Sheffield return just ^55.70 return.   That's one hell of a saving on the through Bristol-Sheffield return fare of ^135!   Save even more by getting the 0900 departure, and the total cost is right down to ^46.90.   These fares can be achived at short notice, by booking via the internet on the night before travel.  Can still be achieved on the day(for a morning departure), but it would mean getting out at the split ticket destinations, buying the next ticket and waiting for the next train.

Using my copy of NFM03 I came out with totally different prices for this journey....although generally in the ball-park of ^45-^55 for a day return BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains)-SHF splitting at CNM^» (Cheltenham Spa - next trains), BHM, and DBY. I should point out though that there is no need to disembark and buy tickets at the split points as XPT states. If you know what tickets you want you can buy them from any manned station at the start of your journey. The only consideration for split-tickets is to ensure that the service(s) you board call(s) at the chosen split stations. No need to get off! Therefore, with the right combination of tickets (bearing in mind time validities etc) You can travel from BRI-SHF on the 0830 direct service for a lot less than the ^135 SOR you would normally be sold.

[XPT]

Yes I stand corrected on that Bignosemac.   No need to faff about disembarking, buy tickets, wait for next train, etc.  Just get the tickets at the ticket office on the station you're departing from.   You would get a surprised looking ticket office clerk though asking for three/four(or even more) sets of tickets.  But what the hell!   You just don't want to paying ridiculuously stupid overpriced fares like ^135 return, when you could get it around ^80 cheaper!

Thanks again for the tips Bignosemac.   Particularly useful to know I can travel back from Birmingham on the 1730 or 1830 service via the direct line for just ^15.30 return walk-on fare.