HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[Not from Brighton]

I'm sure I saw a proposal somewhere to divert all of the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) slow services into Crossrail tunnels and thus free up the slow lines from Willesden Junction for use by HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) into Euston. Thus in a stroke finding something useful to do with the Crossrail 16 TPH^▸ (trains per hour) terminating at Paddington and saving ^4Bn from the HS2 price tag.
There's probably a catch...

[anthony215]

good idea in theory, but there is always a BUT.

I did read a report published a year or so ago which proposed it, i will have a look for it though.

That said there is a lot of oppostition to runing HSW into Euston which i sure i read somewhere before would mean the end of London Overground services into Euston to free up some platforms.

Wouldnt i be cheaper to build a station at old oak common which would have a interchange station with crossrail so that there is easy acess to Heathrow, Reading, London Paddington, Central London & the City?

[paul7575]

I did read a report published a year or so ago which proposed it, i will have a look for it though.

I'm sure I saw a proposal somewhere ...

It's discussed in a fair amount of detail in the final version of the London and SE 2nd generation RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy).

...and we were discussing it only a couple of days ago in the 'Crossrail' thread towards the bottom of the page here:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=818.60

There's a link to the RUS in that thread so I won't repeat it...

Paul

[paul7575]

That said there is a lot of oppostition to runing HSW into Euston which i sure i read somewhere before would mean the end of London Overground services into Euston to free up some platforms.

Wouldnt i be cheaper to build a station at old oak common which would have a interchange station with crossrail so that there is easy acess to Heathrow, Reading, London Paddington, Central London & the City?

The government have already committed to an HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) station at Old Oak Common, with interchange platforms on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) for access to Heathrow.  This was part of their announcement prior to the recently closed consultation. 

The only continuing debate is really about a Crosssrail interchange, and potential LO NLL or WLL interchanges.

The works described at Euston do not include removing LO services at all, not even temporarily AIUI^▸ (as I understand it), and I've been through all the papers about HS2 on the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s website.

Paul 

[anthony215]

Just been watching a few youtube videos of pete waterman campaigning for HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) and arguing with Mr christian wolmar over it.

[Btline]

The problem I have is the effect on Wolverhampton and Coventry etc. The service is likely to be slowed down or reduced in frequency. For the former, a change in birmingham will result in no journey time saving. For the latter, no alternative.

I think high speed tracks should stop at rugby so the existing service can be maintained but with faster journey times and higher frequencies.

[ellendune]

I see no reason why the service provided on the classic route after HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) need be any slower than before.  Perhaps not as frequent at that speed to allow a better service for more places.

If you insist that HS2 has to stop every 30 miles it will no longer be high speed!

[Not from Brighton]

Lets hope there isn't a Eurostar style check-in process or it will be quicker to use the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line).

[ChrisB]

Why on earth should there be?

[Btline]

I see no reason why the service provided on the classic route after HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) need be any slower than before.  Perhaps not as frequent at that speed to allow a better service for more places.
If you insist that HS2 has to stop every 30 miles it will no longer be high speed!

Umm, because most pax travelling from London to Bham will be on HS2, so there won't be the demand for 3 11 car trains per hour. They are bound to either axe this to 1 or 2, or to make all trains stop at Rugby, Milton Keynes and Watford. This will add about 15 mins to the journey time. So Coventry to Euston will be 1 hr 15 instead of 1 hr. Wolverhampton to Euston will be 1 hr 45 on classic or 1 hr 30 on HS2. (which is what they have now, without changing!)

As well as this, direct trains from Milton Keynes to Manchester, Crewe etc. are also likely to be slowed down, as well as commuter trains to Trent Valley stations. A HSL from London to Rugby would allow all flows to retain existing calling patterns, but with faster journey times and still freeing up the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) fasts.

[ChrisB]

Umm, because most pax travelling from London to Bham will be on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)), so there won't be the demand for 3 11 car trains per hour. They are bound to either axe this to 1 or 2, or/b] to make all trains stop at Rugby, Milton Keynes and Watford.

Ummm - I think they'll do both, for the reason you gave. They'll be looking to fill what trains they run, but I don't think 1 tph will be the right service for Coventry / Rugby - so 2tph, along with the extra stops you listed....

Also, the fares will drop as they're no longer the Premier service to Birmingham, which in turn will attract some that currently use Chiltern as they're 50% of Virgin's fare. THe domino effect will likely mean changes at Chiltern too, as three competing services from Brum are either going to introduce some cut-throat marketing, or a reduction in services, or both.

[JayMac]

It'll be four competing services if the franchise map stays the same.

Chiltern
West Coast
London Midland
HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))

[Btline]

No wonder Chiltern are extending to Oxford. I suspect they'll remain committed to Kidderminster to try and keep as many people on "direct" trains. I don't think there is enough demand for 4 TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) to compete!

If Chris B is correct, then Coventry will lose out big time, it'll be cheaper and less crowded.

[ChrisB]

Only by a max of 15 mins I reckon - and thats to Lindon.

Of course, other extra stops will open up other opportunities too - Lonfon Midland might lose 1tph or have different stopping patterns, so Virgin might pick up the Northamoton stop, for example, thus improving services there. We'll have to wait & see - but the RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) is quite clear that all the 3 current operators will have service frequency & stopping patterns reviewed once HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is up & running

[JayMac]

Only by a max of 15 mins I reckon - and thats to Lindon.

Lindon, Colorado or Lindon, Middle Earth?