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Author Topic: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion  (Read 494702 times)
Chafford1
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« Reply #120 on: March 10, 2010, 20:11:07 »

From the Guardian website this evening (10/03/10)


'The government will tomorrow unveil plans for a 225mph British high-speed rail network, including a detailed London-to-Birmingham route that will create more than 10,000 jobs if the multibillion pound project goes ahead.

The transport secretary, Lord Adonis, will announce that building and operating an ultra-fast rail link between the capital and Britain's second city will boost manufacturing and technology industries in the UK (United Kingdom). Construction could begin as soon as 2017 with 2027 a likely completion date for the first phase. The route would have to undergo a public consultation before going through parliament.

Adonis is considering a London-to-Birmingham line that starts at London Euston station and does not go through Heathrow directly, instead connecting with Britain's largest airport at a site on Old Oak Common in west London that will be called the Crossrail Interchange.

It will connect passengers to the airport via the ^16bn Crossrail route, which links Heathrow to Canary Wharf via central London and is due to open in 2017.

The route will then embark on its most controversial phase, through the Chiltern hills in Buckinghamshire, one of 40 areas of outstanding natural beauty in England and Wales.

The Chilterns Conservation Board, the public body responsible for protecting the area, has warned that swaths of the area could be "trashed" by the route.

However, part of the line is expected to run alongside a dual carriageway in the Chilterns as Adonis seeks to build the line alongside existing transport routes. It will then stop near Birmingham airport and the National Exhibition Centre at a parkway station, designed for car drivers and bus users, before continuing to a new terminal in Birmingham city centre. The main route will continue from Birmingham airport through the Trent valley to connect with existing rail lines, where high-speed services will continue to Manchester and Scotland at conventional speeds.

The journey from Old Oak Common to the parkway station will be swift, taking 31 minutes compared with the current 80-minute journey from London Euston to Birmingham New Street.

Although trains are expected to travel at 225mph, the route has been designed to achieve a top speed of 250mph. The London-to-Birmingham route has been drawn up by a government-backed company, High Speed Two, and will be published in detail, within five metres in urban areas and 25 metres in the countryside. The full High Speed Two report will be published alongside the Adonis proposals, which will become a white paper once the public consultation has closed.

However, the national route beyond Birmingham will be outlined in broader terms, with rail industry sources expecting a "V" shaped network running through Manchester to Glasgow on the west side of the UK and to Leeds and Edinburgh on the east side. Adonis ultimately hopes to reduce the journey time from London to Edinburgh from four and a half hours to two hours 40 minutes.'
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paul7575
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« Reply #121 on: March 11, 2010, 13:07:16 »

http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/adonis20100311

The announcement has this to say about the route:

"Subject to this consultation, the London terminus for the high speed line
would be Euston; the Birmingham City Centre station would be at Curzon
Street; and there would be interchange stations with Crossrail west of
Paddington and near Birmingham Airport.  HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) Ltd's recommended line of route
between London and Birmingham is also published today; the Government
endorses this route, subject to further work which I have commissioned on
mitigation, and to subsequent public consultation. HS2 Ltd's recommended
route would pass in tunnel from Euston to the Crossrail Interchange west of
Paddington. It would leave London via the Ruislip area, making use of an
existing rail corridor. It would then pass by Amersham in tunnel towards
Aylesbury, before following the route of the A413 past Wendover.
"North of the Chilterns, the recommended route would follow in part the
disused Great Central rail alignment before passing Brackley and entering
Warwickshire. It would then skirt to the east of Birmingham, to enter the
city via a short link, alongside an existing rail line, beginning in the
Water Orton area, with the main line extending north to the West Coast Main
Line near Lichfield."

and Heathrow/Crossrail etc:

"It is important that Heathrow is connected to any high speed line. A prime
purpose of the proposed Crossrail Interchange is to provide such a
connection, via an 11 minute direct service to Heathrow. However, the
overwhelming majority of passengers on a high speed line south of Birmingham
would be going to or from London. This is the other reason why the Crossrail
Interchange station is so important. Crossrail, a very high capacity line,
will provide fast services direct to the West End, the City and Docklands,
catering for an estimated one third of all the passengers travelling on the
high speed line. Without this Interchange to Crossrail, congestion on the
tube from Euston would be exacerbated, and passengers would be severely
disadvantaged in getting in and through central London.

"The question is whether there is a case for an additional station at the
site of Heathrow itself.  HS2 Ltd, after thorough analysis, advise that the
business case for such an additional station appears weak, given the
estimated cost of at least ^2 billion for the additional tunnelling required
to serve the site. Furthermore, Heathrow is not a single place; it is an
airport with three widely dispersed terminal centres.

"However, I am conscious that, as foreshadowed in the Government's January
2009 decision on adding capacity at Heathrow, there may be a strategic case
for a high speed station at Heathrow, particularly in the light of that
planned expansion. I have therefore appointed Lord Mawhinney, a former
Transport Secretary, to advise on the best way forward, having fully engaged
with all interested parties.  A complex decision of this nature should not
be taken in a knee-jerk fashion, but after a full analysis of the facts and
options."

Paul
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Btline
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« Reply #122 on: March 11, 2010, 15:25:54 »

I can see the advantages of using Old Oak Common's Xrail link to ease possible Tube overwhelmation at Euston. Something's been thought through for once!

I assume that the Xrail trains currently planned to terminate at Paddington will all be extended to Old Oak Common to deal with these extra pax. Who know's, perhaps they were planning ahead when they decided 14 tph would stop at Padd?!!

It's just a shame that the B'ham terminus will be so unconnected from all the West Midlands' rail network. There will now be 3 different stations (4 if you count Snow Hill and Moor Street separately) in the city centre, with poor links between them. I think some sort of high capacity rapid transit system (underground, or monorail) is needed to link them all. Or scrap the New Street re-build, and build a new station (i.e. the B'ham Grand Central scheme) near Curzon Street, incorporating all the existing New Street lines, and HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)). A walkway could link it to Moor Street, to give Snow Hill line passengers (remember that it is now B'ham's busiest route!) a good link.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #123 on: March 11, 2010, 15:32:43 »

Well, there's the proposed route out in the open then.  Watch the NIMBY's start their campaigns with venom from now onwards!

Probably what most people thought the route would be - the route from Old Oak via North Acton to Ruislip was an obvious candidate as it's fairly straight and hardly used at the moment.  The Crossrail link is a sensible compromise to the Heathrow conundrum.  The route through the Chilterns is a little further east from the M40 corridor than I would have expected, but in terms of Birmingham the largely industrial/waste land near Curzon Street is the ideal location and a stop for the NEC» (National Exhibition Centre - about)/Airport as an integral part of the route is sensible.   The temporary interface with the WCML (West Coast Main Line) just north of Lichfield will mean the busiest stretches of the WCML will be relieved of their fastest services allowing for the growth of freight and more regional trains to use the southern end of the WCML.

A lot of questions and concerns still to address (Btline's Birmingham comments being one of many), but a start nonetheless!
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paul7575
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« Reply #124 on: March 11, 2010, 15:46:29 »

I can see the advantages of using Old Oak Common's Xrail link to ease possible Tube overwhelmation at Euston. Something's been thought through for once!

I assume that the Xrail trains currently planned to terminate at Paddington will all be extended to Old Oak Common to deal with these extra pax. Who know's, perhaps they were planning ahead when they decided 14 tph would stop at Padd?!!
The plan for Crossrail was that the terminating trains were going to run to a 'dummy station' with basic platforms some way beyond Paddington anyway, this was so that they wouldn't have to check trains were empty at Paddington before running forward (Westbourne Park maybe?) I think TfL» (Transport for London - about) and the lcal authority were already discussing an extra station at OOC (Old Oak Common (depot)) anyway, which wouldn't cost much more.
Quote
Or scrap the New Street re-build, and build a new station (i.e. the B'ham Grand Central scheme) near Curzon Street, incorporating all the existing New Street lines, and HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)). A walkway could link it to Moor Street, to give Snow Hill line passengers (remember that it is now B'ham's busiest route!) a good link.
Odd that the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) have referred to Curzon St as the location of the HS2 station, the actual report from HS2 Ltd calls it Fazely St consistently, and if you saw the drawing I posted earlier it has access to Moor St.

Paul
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caliwag
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« Reply #125 on: March 11, 2010, 15:49:55 »

So am I right in thinking, assuming any of this gets the go-ahead, that all points North of Birmingham, highspeed, are from International...a tad inconvenient surely or is there a triangle at the junction? Undecided
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paul7575
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« Reply #126 on: March 11, 2010, 16:01:31 »

No, there is a 'delta junction' somewhere near Water Orton, which allows trains from Birmingham (Fazely/Curzon St) to run via a west to north chord without going back to the new interchange near International.

What is interesting is that trains stopping at the interchange for Birmingham will not go back onto the HS (High Speed (short for HSS (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) through lines, but there will be reserved tracks for Birmingham bound trains to the junction. Have a look at the inset schematic on this drawing...

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/route/westmidmap02.pdf

Paul
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Btline
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« Reply #127 on: March 11, 2010, 19:18:32 »

Sorry, can you give a link to the diagram, I can't find it anywhere, and my computer freezes with the size of some of those files, so I don't want to use trial and error! Tongue
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JayMac
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« Reply #128 on: March 11, 2010, 19:38:38 »

Btline, I think it's more a case of the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) site being overwhelmed with traffic, I've been unable to download any of the HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) stuff at all today. I'm gonna try in the wee small hours, but have also ordered a few copies of the free CD (Capital Delivery)-Rom for keepsies.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 19:44:31 by bignosemac » Logged

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« Reply #129 on: March 11, 2010, 19:56:36 »

Some really detailed stuff on the DFT (Department for Transport) site, The one document worth looking at in some detail as far as I can see is ARUP's Route Engineering Study Final Report: A report for High Speed Two Ltd - Chapter 5 (PDF - 17 MB) - Weighs in at a huge size but even has potential construction scenarios for MegaEuston. I'm really impressed with the detail (Network Rail take note).

Hopefully some cross party consensus seems to be developing on the project too.

DFT Rail
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 20:07:17 by RailCornwall » Logged
Btline
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« Reply #130 on: March 11, 2010, 20:10:59 »

Have any of you seen the announcement in parliament? http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/house_of_commons/newsid_8561000/8561782.stm

Transport Minister Sadiq Khan does not seem to know what he's talking about, reading the statement as if he has never set eyes on it before, being unfamiliar with rail terms, and mis pronouncing St Pancras (as Pancreas).

BUT... it sounds good.
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« Reply #131 on: March 11, 2010, 20:13:54 »

I think it's understandable that Sadiq Kahn is unfamaliar with rail terminology - I was under the impression he was the Minister for Buses!
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« Reply #132 on: March 11, 2010, 20:39:22 »

The formal Government announcement was Andrew Adonis' in the Lords. Khan's was an information statement only as applies when the Minister is 'in the other place'.

BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) Democracy Live - Adonis unveils high-speed rail plans in Lords statement
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paul7575
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« Reply #133 on: March 11, 2010, 20:43:43 »

Sorry, can you give a link to the diagram, I can't find it anywhere, and my computer freezes with the size of some of those files, so I don't want to use trial and error! Tongue

If that was a reply to my (previous) post, that was a link to the diagram - the junction schematic is an inset on the map...

Paul
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« Reply #134 on: March 11, 2010, 22:30:56 »

Hang on a sec  Huh wasn't a "fast rail line" built on this very alignment (London - Brackley) opened about 100 years ago and closed 40 years ago

Now this what is called progress  Roll Eyes

I do think the Tory's have a Heathrow fetish which I think is quite unachievable and is potentially the biggest risk to HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) not being built, if AURP thought it was economic to go via Heathrow they would have proposed it
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