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Author Topic: HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion  (Read 494652 times)
Deltic
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« Reply #105 on: February 21, 2010, 11:54:10 »

HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) would benefit the few and not the many.

I disagree.  HS2 would benefit the many by freeing up capacity on existing lines to increase frequencies on current services.  I do agree that we should be ordering additional rolling stock now to augment services on existing lines.

HS2 will be many years before it is a reality but the longer we delay it, the more rail risks losing competitiveness to other modes and we risk the investment being diverted into building more motorways, which would be a disaster.  It is great that we have seen, over the last few years, the reversal in the decline of the railway network that we all probably grew up with.  I want to see progress made on HS2 now so that when more money is available after the recession we can get on with building it.  And if the rail lobby is not united behind it, it stands little chance of success which would be a great opportunity wasted.
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Timmer
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« Reply #106 on: February 21, 2010, 12:27:11 »

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) as I welcome any new line being built but what I ask is how will it benefit lines like Cardiff-Portsmouth and services to the West Country? The GWML (Great Western Main Line) has missed out on major investment for many years whereas the ECML (East Coast Main Line) and WCML (West Coast Main Line) have had billions thrown at them not always well spent I must add.
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« Reply #107 on: February 21, 2010, 16:00:49 »

The WCML (West Coast Main Line) is only forecast to become full south of Rugby. So a better use of the money would be to alleviate the pressure here with some new dedicated fast tracks where the Pendolinos can get to 140. (and perhaps a Stafford bypass route, so permitting 140 all the way to Crewe)
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #108 on: February 24, 2010, 22:45:21 »

A video report from the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page), with some rather amusing model village footage by way of illustration: "Has cross-party support for high speed rail broken down?"
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« Reply #109 on: March 04, 2010, 20:15:11 »

From The Guardian:

Quote
No Heathrow direct link in high speed rail plans.
Instead, airport passengers on the 200mph trains would get a connecting service from Old Oak Common in west London.

The government is preparing to publish its vision for a high-speed rail network, and is considering a London-to-Birmingham route with no direct link to Heathrow airport.

The launch of a high-speed rail white paper has been pencilled in for next Thursday (11/03/2010) and will include a detailed London-to-Birmingham proposal as well as the broad outline of a UK (United Kingdom) network. But rail industry sources said High Speed Two, the government-backed company charged with drawing up the routes, does not see a business case for basing a major rail hub at Heathrow Airport.

Instead, passengers on the 200mph trains would get a connecting service to Britain's largest airport from an intermediate stop on the high-speed line at Old Oak Common in west London. From there passengers will join a Heathrow-bound service on the Crossrail route, a ^16bn railway line linking the airport to Canary Wharf via central London that has not yet been built.

London's Euston station has been earmarked as the main terminal, according to rail industry sources. But the transport secretary, Lord Adonis, believes Old Oak Common will be just as popular with passengers because of the Crossrail connection that will ferry passengers to Heathrow in about five minutes, or Liverpool Street in the centre of the capital's financial district in around 30 minutes.

Heathrow's owner, BAA, has indicated that it would prefer a direct link to the airport ^ an argument that also has the backing of the Conservative party. A BAA spokesman said a high-speed network would boost the case for a third runway because passengers outside London would find the airport more accessible. "We expect high-speed rail to strengthen the case for additional capacity at the UK's only hub airport, and would favour a station at the airport," said a BAA spokesman.

A site near Birmingham international airport is also being considered for a parkway station on a route that will link both cities by a 50-minute train ride, with a further terminal at a new site in the heart of Birmingham. The main body of the line would then carry on from Birmingham international through the Trent valley, and join the west coast mainline north of the city to travel to Manchester and Scotland at conventional speeds until the next phase of the network is built.

The route from London to Birmingham has been planned minutely, with HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) placing the tracks within five metres in urban areas and 25 metres in the countryside, with the view to opening in 2025 after an eight-year multimillion-pound building programme. However, the route north of Birmingham will be outlined in less specific terms by Lord Adonis.

The main planning concern for the first phase is how to push trains through the Chiltern hills in Buckinghamshire without causing excessive damage to an area of outstanding natural beauty. The government will put the routes out to a public consultation in the autumn.

The Tories, who have pledged to build a high speed network instead of a third runway at Heathrow, have reserved the right to alter the HS2 route if they win the general election. Theresa Villiers, the shadow transport secretary, is believed to be interested in a proposal by Arup, the engineering firm, to place a high-speed rail hub at the airport. Critics argue that the potential site for the hub is not much closer to the airport than Old Oak Common is.
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« Reply #110 on: March 04, 2010, 23:23:18 »

I'm sure that'll be pretty near the mark if not spot on.  Much more sensible than the Tories Hub idea.  We'll see in good time whether either scheme will come of anything...
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« Reply #111 on: March 05, 2010, 09:53:14 »

HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) SHOULD serve Heathrow, but as a spur line (so journey times are not affected).

But this whole Old Oak Common/ Heathrow Hub thing needs to STOP. Not least because it will involve a further TWO stops on FGW (First Great Western)'s "high" speed services - i.e. adding on 10 minutes onto schedules that need to be sped up not slowed further!

But I am sceptical about this whole HS2 thing anyway. I've said it many times before, why not spend a fraction of the money on 2 new tracks for the WCML (West Coast Main Line) as far as Rugby, also adding a link to Heathrow and HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel). (which is what Virgin want to do)
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Tim
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« Reply #112 on: March 05, 2010, 10:20:33 »

But this whole Old Oak Common/ Heathrow Hub thing needs to STOP. Not least because it will involve a further TWO stops on FGW (First Great Western)'s "high" speed services - i.e. adding on 10 minutes onto schedules that need to be sped up not slowed further!


I think the idea is to put the Heathrow hub at OOC (Old Oak Common (depot)) so that there will be only one extra stop on the GWML (Great Western Main Line). I too share your concerns that this one extra stop will impact on FGW high speed services.  If it happens we need line speed increases elsewhere to compensate.   

It does open up some further journey oportunities for folk from the SW though.  Bristol-Manchester would presumably be faster via the HS (High Speed (short for HSS (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) hub than via the XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) route.  Possibly it could even be done direct when the GWML is electrified.   
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« Reply #113 on: March 05, 2010, 11:13:24 »

"London's Euston station has been earmarked as the main terminal, according to rail industry sources. But the transport secretary, Lord Adonis, believes Old Oak Common will be just as popular with passengers because of the Crossrail connection that will ferry passengers to Heathrow in about five minutes, or Liverpool Street in the centre of the capital's financial district in around 30 minutes."

5 minutes to Heatrow I reckon that's at least an average of 120 mph!

Not sure of OOC (Old Oak Common (depot)) as a hub junction on HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) it's too close to Padd and Euston. However given it's place in the London Rail Network it does give lots of through journey possibilities from HS2 to the South Coast with links to the West London line to Clapham Jn, NL Line to Kew. A few yards of condutor rail  from  South Acton to New/Old Kew Jns and you could have through electric trains from HS2 to SWT (South West Trains) destinations.

IF MML» (Midland Main Line. - about) line is ever electrifed you could have trains from off the Midland as well.

Use for old Eurostars?

So if it's going to be OOC as a hub let's make it London Hbf with lots of platforms and electrified links in all directions, local  services to NL & WL TV Chiltern all the old SR(resolve) Commuter Lines and mainline links to all the radial lines from London. From Southern clockwise to C2C.

How about Hornsey as the interchange with the ECML (East Coast Main Line)?

It would certainly use it for many journies from Taplow if all the links were in place and it saved me dragging a suitcase on the Tube.

Although having said all this Frankfurt Flughafen station is not far from Frankfurt Hbf but at least it is on the high speed line to Cologne.

 
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« Reply #114 on: March 05, 2010, 11:38:10 »

Actually, I can see the benefits of an Old Oak Hub, as it would allow lots of current services from the West and South to run onto the high speed line, thus giving it a use other than ferrying the supposed billions that travel between London and Birmingham every hour.
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grahame
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« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2010, 14:08:13 »

Actually, I can see the benefits of an Old Oak Hub, as it would allow lots of current services from the West and South to run onto the high speed line, thus giving it a use other than ferrying the supposed billions that travel between London and Birmingham every hour.

Yep ... and with Crossrail open and providing links into the centre of London it would allow longer distance trains to be terminated a little further out and Paddington to be closed and the site sold off for redevelopment Wink
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Btline
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« Reply #116 on: March 06, 2010, 01:09:59 »

Actually, I can see the benefits of an Old Oak Hub, as it would allow lots of current services from the West and South to run onto the high speed line, thus giving it a use other than ferrying the supposed billions that travel between London and Birmingham every hour.

Yep ... and with Crossrail open and providing links into the centre of London it would allow longer distance trains to be terminated a little further out and Paddington to be closed and the site sold off for redevelopment Wink

Yes, and why not widen the A40 Westway using the trackbed! :p
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« Reply #117 on: March 08, 2010, 13:19:26 »

HaHa...Mr Wolmar, the only man seeing through the fog and hype...industry take note. With typical UK (United Kingdom) dithering it'll never happen, hopefully. Cool
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« Reply #118 on: March 08, 2010, 18:40:02 »

HaHa...Mr Wolmar, the only man seeing through the fog and hype...industry take note. With typical UK (United Kingdom) dithering it'll never happen, hopefully. Cool

I think you're referring to Mr Wolmar's article in the TSSA» (Transport Salaried Staffs' Association - about) journal:

'Towards the end of this month, we will get the government^s White Paper based on the work by the HS2 (The next High Speed line(s)) team which will set out a route between London and Birmingham down to the last few inches. Everyone apparently wants a high speed line. The Tories, the Libdems and belatedly Labour have all embraced the idea. Environmentalists say it will be green, the CBI says it will be good for the economy and the unions reckon it will create jobs.

 There is much excitement among the media stimulated by squabbling between various towns in the Midlands and the North about where a line should go. The Sunday Times even ran a story complaining that the Tories had not funded the line north of Leeds and therefore it might not even go to Scotland.
 It looks, therefore, like a no-brainer. Given the political consensus and the universal approval, what can stop it? Well, actually, lots and the idea that the line could be built without serious damaging effects on the rest of the rail network is fanciful.

 The whole project is being caught up in its own hype and a reality check is urgently needed. Lets first put the overblown story in the Sunday Times to rest. The story is about a line which will not even start to be built until 2015, with a completely unquantified cost and- except you can be sure it will be more than any number so far quoted - and a purpose which has never been properly specified. The line, at best, would not reach Scotland till 2025. Yet, here they are getting up a head of steam over the details of something that may or may not happen in fifteen years time. That is like much of the coverage of HS2, quite literally much ado about nothing.

The Tories are partly to blame. They claim that their proposal is fully funded and worked out. It is, wait for it, a line that will go from London, probably via Heathrow, to Birmingham, Manchester and then through the Pennines to Leeds. That is complete madness. If the line had an L shape, and stopped in the intermediary cities, it would hardly be faster than the existing two hour service between Leeds and London. It^s a typical politician^s plan, trying to include everyone but unable to stand up to rigorous analysis.

Moreover, the Tories plan to fund the line partly through the private sector which will only make the scheme more expensive since it has no hope of being commercially viable. But even they admit that ^15bn out of the supposed ^20bn cost will have to come from the public sector, or ^1.3bn per year during the 12 year construction period.

Even if assuming that these figures are not underestimates, this shows the real danger of a high speed line. There is no way that it would be built without demands being made on the existing rail budget. During a 12 year period, there is almost bound to be an economic downturn and halfway through construction it would be impossible to cut back on the construction costs as the contracts would be let. This is not a zero sum game. The money for investing in the high speed line would ultimately come out of the budget for the maintenance and improvement of existing lines, especially in hard times.

 HS2 therefore represents a significant threat to the existing railway. You only have to go to France to see that while the TGV (Train a Grande Vitesse) services are undoubtedly wonderful and far better than any services on this side of the Channel, their lignes classiques are characterised in many places by old trains, irregular services and rundown stations. France^s investment in high speed lines has been at the cost of the old railway.

 There are plenty of other reasons why a high speed line is unlikely to be built, Its environmental credentials are dubious, the state of the economy is unlikely to warrant it, rising energy prices will impact on the railway and new technology may well reduce the need for business travel.

The focus of the investment programme should, therefore, be on improving and adapting the existing railway. Given that load factors on the railways are still load, except at peak times, there is plenty of spare capacity. You only have to look at the vast empty spaces in first class at most times of the day to realise that.

 Indeed, abolishing first class would create a vast amount of extra capacity, far more cheaply than building a new line. If capacity is the main problem, then investment needs to be targeted at bottlenecks. The priorities for the investment programme beyond 2014 has just been examined by the Commons Transport Committee in a report published on February 15. The report highlights the fact that investment in railways is currently at a historic high and most of that is untouchable because it is committed in Network Rail^s current five year plan. Rightly, the committee warns that the next five year period, starting in 1914 is likely to be much tighter and says that this requires prioritisation.

That is undoubtedly right and my instinct is that the railway must focus on modest but significant schemes - infilling electrification, reopening lines on the cheap through the use of development money, boosting capacity by clever pathing and maximising use of existing track, reducing costs of running branch lines through flexible arrangements and so on.

 This may sound unexciting and modest but it isn^t. Quite the opposite. The railways could be operated far more efficiently than at the moment, and spending money on bottlenecks and small scale schemes could lead to radical improvements.

 There must, though, be room for some major schemes. By 2014, London will have benefitted from a huge proportion of the investment in the railways - Thameslink, Crossrail, HS1 (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) commuter services, East London Line, the PPP on the Underground and so on. So rightly, the MPs (Member of Parliament) - who of course have vested interests but never mind that - are seeking to see major schemes such as electrifying the Midland Main Line and improving the Manchester hub which has become a major bottlenecks.

 The railway is going through a fantastic period of investment which is bound to be cut back once these large schemes start to come on stream. After such a bonanza, it would be unrealistic to expect that a north south high speed line could be built without detracting from much-needed investment programmes. Sure there is a potential capacity problem, but it is not big enough to justify a scheme costing upwards of ^30 billion. Let^s focus on Britain^s lignes classiques and forget the pipedream.'
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« Reply #119 on: March 08, 2010, 21:19:31 »

Indeed thanks, I did post the link, but plainly it didn't! Huh
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