HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[grahame]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)

The government should pause its sale of land acquired for phase 2 of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) for up to three years, its independent adviser on infrastructure has told BBC News.

Sir John Armitt warned there was a "real risk" that its plans would make rail travel between Birmingham and Manchester "even more congested".

Rishi Sunak recently announced he was axing the HS2 link to Manchester and selling off properties purchased.

The government said it was delivering "transport that matters most".

The opposition has accused the government of "salting the earth" and "sabotage" of a project that had enjoyed a decade-and-a-half of cross-party support.

[ellendune]

I don't think it is as simple as that as most projects have a change of requirements, but certainly there needs to be a major rethink about how we develop these big infrastructure projects in this country as they take too long and cost too much.

Yes they do but none on quite the scale of change as in HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))

It has been pointed out to me that it is not just rail projects that overspend.  They suggest the stop start nature of UK^▸ (United Kingdom) infrastructure projects is a major part of the overspend.  What we have ended up with is a supply chain that has adapted to large swings in demand - feast and famine. To do this everything is subcontracted as far as possible so that the main contractors fixed workforce can be kept busy during the famine periods and they therefore use subcontractors - often labour only subcontractors to do the work. Each link in this often complex supply chain takes a profit inflating the costs. This leads to poor skills and lack of investment in mechanisation and innovation. 

[IndustryInsider]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)

The government should pause its sale of land acquired for phase 2 of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) for up to three years, its independent adviser on infrastructure has told BBC News.

Sir John Armitt warned there was a "real risk" that its plans would make rail travel between Birmingham and Manchester "even more congested".

Rishi Sunak recently announced he was axing the HS2 link to Manchester and selling off properties purchased.

The government said it was delivering "transport that matters most".

The opposition has accused the government of "salting the earth" and "sabotage" of a project that had enjoyed a decade-and-a-half of cross-party support.

A petition regarding this has nearly reached 30000 signatures in a week or so.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/halt-the-sale-of-all-land-purchased-for-hs2

[ChrisB]

Pointless petition as the Government don't (nor are they required to) recognise petitions on this platform. Better to have put it on the Parliament platform?

[IndustryInsider]

Pointless petition as the Government don't (nor are they required to) recognise petitions on this platform. Better to have put it on the Parliament platform?

It would be pointless on there as well I suspect.  Even if they are required to recognise it.

[grahame]

Pointless petition as the Government don't (nor are they required to) recognise petitions on this platform. Better to have put it on the Parliament platform?

Not totally sure "pointless".  No official point, but with enough signatures and enough people writing to their MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament, or Mile Post - a method of measuring the railway in miles and chains from a starting point - usually London, depending on context) about it, it may well be noticed.  I would agree that the parliament platform is much more direct and can be (much more?) effective in raising an issue.

But attempting to get a change here is trying to move an immobile and politically re-enforced road block. Strong enough support, including official Labour Party support, could make it hard for HMG to sell off the land

[TaplowGreen]

Pointless petition as the Government don't (nor are they required to) recognise petitions on this platform. Better to have put it on the Parliament platform?

It would be pointless on there as well I suspect.  Even if they are required to recognise it.

The petition on the Parliament platform (see earlier posts on this thread) has reached a mighty 398 signatures after 2 weeks.

[IndustryInsider]

Which, for the sake of clarity, had a different objection of course.

[TaplowGreen]

Which, for the sake of clarity, had a different objection of course.

.........and both equally likely to be successful.

[IndustryInsider]

Which, for the sake of clarity, had a different objection of course.

.........and both equally likely to be successful.

Do you think it would be sensible to ‘get rid’ ASAP, or is it more prudent to not burn all the bridges immediately?

[TonyK]

The worst case scenario with the bargain basement fire sale is that certain people with friends currently in high places buy CPO'd land at commercial cost to make a big killing when it is CPO'd again after a proper analysis finds it was stupid to scrap the northern bit of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)).

[TaplowGreen]

The worst case scenario with the bargain basement fire sale is that certain people with friends currently in high places buy CPO'd land at commercial cost to make a big killing when it is CPO'd again after a proper analysis finds it was stupid to scrap the northern bit of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)).

It is said that there are 5 stages of grief - getting through the first (denial) is often the hardest but it will help you to move forward to eventual acceptance, coming to terms and moving on 

[Mark A]

The worst case scenario with the bargain basement fire sale is that certain people with friends currently in high places buy CPO'd land at commercial cost to make a big killing when it is CPO'd again after a proper analysis finds it was stupid to scrap the northern bit of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)).

It is said that there are 5 stages of grief - getting through the first (denial) is often the hardest but it will help you to move forward to eventual acceptance, coming to terms and moving on 

Er, that's a no from me. The current government hasn't killed HS2, they've vandalised it in a way that means that the part that *is* built will need a large subsidy so long as it runs in that form.

Phase 2a from Lichfield to Crewe builds something that Network Rail would be likely to build anyway if not in that form. It addresses the bottleneck at the remaining piece of two-track West Coast Main Line.

Accepting the cancellation of HS2 phase 2a means accepting the managed decline we already see in much of the rest of the system.

Mark

[TaplowGreen]

The worst case scenario with the bargain basement fire sale is that certain people with friends currently in high places buy CPO'd land at commercial cost to make a big killing when it is CPO'd again after a proper analysis finds it was stupid to scrap the northern bit of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)).

It is said that there are 5 stages of grief - getting through the first (denial) is often the hardest but it will help you to move forward to eventual acceptance, coming to terms and moving on 

Er, that's a no from me. The current government hasn't killed HS2, they've vandalised it in a way that means that the part that *is* built will need a large subsidy so long as it runs in that form.

Phase 2a from Lichfield to Crewe builds something that Network Rail would be likely to build anyway if not in that form. It addresses the bottleneck at the remaining piece of two-track West Coast Main Line.

Accepting the cancellation of HS2 phase 2a means accepting the managed decline we already see in much of the rest of the system.

Mark

Anger and bargaining are stages 2 and 3 - progress!

[Red Squirrel]

A personal view:

It's quite interesting looking back over this long thread to see how people's positions have developed.

I started out as an HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) sceptic; back in 2013 I may even have played my part in persuaduing JayMac that the project was a bad idea, suggesting that the money could be better spent on improving provincial connections.

It's only now, with the cancellation of the Birmingham-Manchester leg, that I have really understood what the project was and what we've lost.

The population of the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) has grown by about 15% since rail privatisation, and rail usage in the same period (even accounting for COVID) has doubled.

Like most people I didn't really understand the argument that HS2 added capacity. But then I got involved in trying to achieve the very thing I once argued should be prioritised over high speed rail: opening new local stations to give people better access to rail.

Opening new stations on branch lines where trains stop at all the stations is technically fairly straightforward. Adding branches can be done astonishingly quickly where there is the will. But opening stations on busy main lines is very difficult, because fast trains hog capacity. As an example, there is demand for two stations between Bristol and Bath, but trains won't be able to stop at both because that would hold up London to Bristol services. Six new stations will open on the four track line between Cardiff and Severn Tunnel Junction, but Pilning will keep its parliamentary service to avoid holding up the fast trains from Cardiff to London.

If we believe that railways have an important role in the future of this country, then it follows that we have to build new railways and open new stations. The alternatives are much less efficient: more roads, or more congestion.

The trickle of reopenings we have seen in recent years is welcome, but it is fiddling around the edges. Taking fast trains off the network opens up the possibility of a vast web of new local connections in the North, the Midlands and even around the Chilterns. The full HS2 network would have freed up the local network around all but one of England's biggest cities: Bristol.

So HS2 has been cut back to be what it's harshest critics said it would be: an expensive shuttle between (somewhere in) London and Birmingham. HS2 is dead. Do we grieve? A bit.

There was a lot wrong with the HS2 project. The whole delivery process has been far too expensive, and the PR^▸ (Public Relations) has been atrocious. But the idea that railways are still relevant, that they might actually be increasingly relevant, hasn't died. Which means that something like HS2 is still needed. Those who don't understand that either don't understand ralways, or prefer a future of fewer choices where cars and aeroplanes are increasingly dominant.