HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[Mark A]

About the same number as, at congested times, the count of standing passengers on a couple of Avanti pendolinos.

Mark

[grahame]

About the same number as, at congested times, the count of standing passengers on a couple of Avanti pendolinos.

Mark

Thus far a demonstration of the danger of starting a petition on a good topic but without a marketing plan to make an impact.

[Electric train]

Wrecking ball – Selling off the land, removing the safeguarding of the route  and Reducing the scope of Euston scope of Euston effectively prevents any future government from completing HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) without incurring massive additional costs (above the cost of completing HS2 to Manchester as currently scoped). These

The current Government I fee will go for a "fire sale" before the General Election.  They will put it on the land on the market below its true value and not recoup the full costs of the original purchase, land clearance etc, but will market as good deal for the tax payers / voters; the cynic in me think they have already lined up their mates ahead of the PM speech at the Tory conference. 

The motivation as you said is to kill off or at least attempt to kill off HS2 to the North, also to use the sell off money as a spending carrot.

[TaplowGreen]

About the same number as, at congested times, the count of standing passengers on a couple of Avanti pendolinos.

Mark

Thus far a demonstration of the danger of starting a petition on a good topic but without a marketing plan to make an impact.

......or the necessity to read the room/national mood before starting it.

This one was considerably more successful - with the Government's response becoming more ironic as events have unfolded.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/563380

[ellendune]

The motivation as you said is to kill off or at least attempt to kill off HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) to the North, also to use the sell off money as a spending carrot.

No they are going to use the sell off money to pay off contractors, nothing more. 

[CyclingSid]

Phase 2a immediately... **Ghost of Critchell Down has entered the coffeeshop* ...and phase 2b next summer when the government's intentions towards the Liverpool Leeds link have been scrapped, I mean, firmed up - HS2b and the ghost of HS3 have interdependencies.

Stumbled over this little nugget referencing Crichel Down and Crossrail https://www.burges-salmon.com/news-and-insight/legal-updates/crichel-down-rules-new-latest-case-law-guidance should be good for some lawyers.

Government guidance at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/compulsory-purchase-process-and-the-crichel-down-rules-guidance

[eXPassenger]

Phase 2a immediately... **Ghost of Critchell Down has entered the coffeeshop* ...and phase 2b next summer when the government's intentions towards the Liverpool Leeds link have been scrapped, I mean, firmed up - HS2b and the ghost of HS3 have interdependencies.

Stumbled over this little nugget referencing Crichel Down and Crossrail https://www.burges-salmon.com/news-and-insight/legal-updates/crichel-down-rules-new-latest-case-law-guidance should be good for some lawyers.

Government guidance at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/compulsory-purchase-process-and-the-crichel-down-rules-guidance

Crichel Down only applies to compulsory purchase.  It will not apply to an agreed purchase even if that had the threat of being compulsory if there was no agreement

Edit.
Following the comment from Stuving below I realise I was wrong.  Thank you for correcting me.

[trainbuff]

Wrecking ball – Selling off the land, removing the safeguarding of the route  and Reducing the scope of Euston scope of Euston effectively prevents any future government from completing HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) without incurring massive additional costs (above the cost of completing HS2 to Manchester as currently scoped). These

The current Government I fee will go for a "fire sale" before the General Election.  They will put it on the land on the market below its true value and not recoup the full costs of the original purchase, land clearance etc, but will market as good deal for the tax payers / voters; the cynic in me think they have already lined up their mates ahead of the PM speech at the Tory conference. 

The motivation as you said is to kill off or at least attempt to kill off HS2 to the North, also to use the sell off money as a spending carrot.

Or just as likely to be sold off to donors to a particular political party perhaps?

[stuving]

Crichel Down only applies to compulsory purchase.  It will not apply to an agreed purchase even if that had the threat of being compulsory if there was no agreement

That's not what the guidance says - and it's quite explicit:

7. The Rules apply to all land if it was acquired by or under threat of compulsion. A threat of compulsion will be assumed in the case of a voluntary sale if power to acquire the land compulsorily existed at the time unless the land was publicly or privately offered for sale immediately before the negotiations for acquisition.

8. The Rules also apply to land acquired under the statutory blight provisions (currently set out in Chapter 2 in Part 6 of, and schedule 13 to, the Town and Country Planning Act 1990). The Rules do not apply to land acquired by agreement in advance of any liability under these provisions.

[TonyK]

Wrecking ball – Selling off the land, removing the safeguarding of the route  and Reducing the scope of Euston scope of Euston effectively prevents any future government from completing HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) without incurring massive additional costs (above the cost of completing HS2 to Manchester as currently scoped). These

The current Government I fee will go for a "fire sale" before the General Election.  They will put it on the land on the market below its true value and not recoup the full costs of the original purchase, land clearance etc, but will market as good deal for the tax payers / voters; the cynic in me think they have already lined up their mates ahead of the PM speech at the Tory conference. 

The motivation as you said is to kill off or at least attempt to kill off HS2 to the North, also to use the sell off money as a spending carrot.

Or just as likely to be sold off to donors to a particular political party perhaps?

I might buy some myself to sell back at a profit when the project restarts.

Another scenario that would prove tricky would be for a protest group to do what Manfred Mann's Earth Band did with the release of the album "The Good Earth" in 1974. Buy strategic pieces of land along the route then sell them in square-foot bits to others, and any future CPO becomes a much more arduous process.

[TaplowGreen]

Wrecking ball – Selling off the land, removing the safeguarding of the route  and Reducing the scope of Euston scope of Euston effectively prevents any future government from completing HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) without incurring massive additional costs (above the cost of completing HS2 to Manchester as currently scoped). These

The current Government I fee will go for a "fire sale" before the General Election.  They will put it on the land on the market below its true value and not recoup the full costs of the original purchase, land clearance etc, but will market as good deal for the tax payers / voters; the cynic in me think they have already lined up their mates ahead of the PM speech at the Tory conference. 

The motivation as you said is to kill off or at least attempt to kill off HS2 to the North, also to use the sell off money as a spending carrot.

Or just as likely to be sold off to donors to a particular political party perhaps?

I might buy some myself to sell back at a profit when the project restarts.

A three legged horse winning the Grand National is probably a better bet.

[grahame]

From the Hampshire Chronicle - letter ... reflects some of our views even from deepest Hampshire

A major factor in the cost overruns is that the government kept changing the requirements. The expensive Euston station was thrown out. They could not even agree the number of platforms. The line was then going to end at Old Oak Common rather than Euston. The main line north of Birmingham was to bypass the rail bottleneck of Crewe, until Conservative MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) in Cheshire realised they might lose votes, so it was changed to pass through Crewe. All lines north of Manchester and onto Leeds were cancelled out and they would be served by an HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) extension across to the old Midland line, but that has now been axed.

Until last week the Prime Minister was a keen supporter of HS2 and voted for it.

The real reason for cancelling HS2 into Manchester and beyond is that the Prime Minister can now scatter lots of sweets to as many places as possible. One might even believe that an election could be coming up and his party are desperate to hang on. Suddenly road potholes are to be sorted, but there would not be any if the government had not held back the funding from local councils.

[CyclingSid]

As anyone who has worked on a government-funded project will know

A major factor in the cost overruns is that the government kept changing the requirements.

this is pretty much situation normal.

[ray951]

I don't think it is as simple as that as most projects have a change of requirements, but certainly there needs to be a major rethink about how we develop these big infrastructure projects in this country as they take too long and cost too much.

As an example I was reading an article yesterday about the bills required to support the building of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) https://www.hansardsociety.org.uk/blog/hs2-fiasco-what-does-it-mean-for-parliament

But some of the details from that are staggering and this is a flavour "The Bill covering the first phase of the HS2 route from London to the West Midlands alone was 440 pages long. It was accompanied by 11 volumes of drawings setting out hundreds of plans and sections, and a 2,800-page book of reference, running to a seven volumes, which set out a description of every parcel of land identified on the plans plus information about their owners"
and the environmental statement was 46,000 pages long and weighed 1 tonne

Imagine how much that cost to write, review and defend in parliament and the courts.

And parliament spent 1300 hours to approve HS2, and all could be stopped by one man without the need to discuss with anyone else, is that democratic?

[ellendune]

I don't think it is as simple as that as most projects have a change of requirements, but certainly there needs to be a major rethink about how we develop these big infrastructure projects in this country as they take too long and cost too much.

Yes they do but none on quite the scale of change as in HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))