HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[ellendune]

Not sure anyone would be willing to take on a franchise for Birmingham-London on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) in the early days, if ever.

So combining it with WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) franchise is probably sensible.

I agree.  More competition can be obtained later when HS2 is fully open by splitting them into two franchises.

[eightf48544]

Interesting comments about services to places like Nottingham Stockport etc.

A similar situation arouse in Madeburg after reunification the line from Madeburg to Hanover was electrified and the town enjoyed at least an hourly ICE service to Hanover and the Ruhr.

With the opening of the HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) Line direct from Berlin to Hanover, Magdeburg lost those services and is now mainly loco hauled IC^▸ (Inter City)'s.

Talking of loops to serve other destinations DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) has recently doubled tracked the line from Braunsweig  to Hildesheim (Hanover) to allow trains from Magdeburg to Hanover to call.

[SandTEngineer]

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) Phase 1 received Royal Assent this morning: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/hs2-phase-1-bill-receives-royal-assent.html

....so spades in the ground soon

[TaplowGreen]

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) Phase 1 received Royal Assent this morning: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/hs2-phase-1-bill-receives-royal-assent.html

....so spades in the ground soon

.......for what will be one of the most colossal white elephants in history (in my humble opinion)

[IndustryInsider]

Well, we'll find out in a decade or two.

[Tim]

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) Phase 1 received Royal Assent this morning: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/hs2-phase-1-bill-receives-royal-assent.html

....so spades in the ground soon

.......for what will be one of the most colossal white elephants in history (in my humble opinion)

I am not convinced that HS2 is the best use of money.  I would have preferred an upgrade of existing lines and if a new line is needed to provide a capacity boost on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) route then I'd have favoured a new freight line which would have been for a moderate speed (therefore far cheaper and less environmentally damaging to build) and of piggyback loading gauge.

But I don't think it will be a white elephant.  I think it will be well used, better used than the Chunnel.     

[TonyK]

Well, we'll find out in a decade or two.

By which time the government will be criticised for making it too small. "Why not four-track, now?" they will cry.

This has always been about capacity first, speed second. We need more rail links between south and north. If we are going to build them, why not make it high speed, rather than building it for 100mph line speed then having to upgrade it?

[Chris from Nailsea]

"Why not four-track, now?" they will cry.

Rather like Kenneth Williams, in a 'Carry On' film: "Infamy, infamy - why did they all have it infamy?" 

[ellendune]

From The Guardian

Theresa May remains 'absolutely committed' to HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) rail link

Theresa May has committed to delivering the HS2 high-speed rail link.
The prime minister was reportedly coming under pressure from Tory MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament, or Mile Post - a method of measuring the railway in miles and chains from a starting point - usually London, depending on context) in the south to cancel HS2, which the government projects will cost £55.7bn.

But her announcement will end speculation that she was preparing to drop the new north-south railway from the Conservatives’ general election manifesto.

In an interview with the Yorkshire Post, May said: “We remain absolutely committed to HS2. It is a very important infrastructure project for the country. It is important that we increase capacity on this mainline and I believe that HS2 is the right way to do that.

“I’m very keen that we do have a country that works for everyone, and that means every part of the country, and that’s why we’ve introduced the modern industrial strategy, we’ve consulted on that and had very good and positive constructive response from business on that.

“Because we want to ensure that in every part of the country we are identifying the benefits they have, the types of economic development that are best suited. How can we encourage that?

“Infrastructure development is a hugely important part of that, it’s why in the autumn statement we were clear that we we’re putting extra money through to 2020 in infrastructure development.”

......

The article continues

[Red Squirrel]

...The article continues

Indeed it does:

May was more cautious about fully committing to an “HS3” or “northern powerhouse” rail link. [...] The PM told the newspaper: “The issue is there are a number of options that are being looked at in relation to HS3 or northern powerhouse rail. But what I would say is those big projects are not the only way in which we are looking to invest in transport in the region.”

Hmm...

[simonw]

What other options exist to kickstart the Northern Powerhouse?

The M62 already exists and is thoroughly overloaded around Manchester and Leeds.

[ChrisB]

All the suggestions re spending the funding relating to HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is on revenue expenditure (NHS, Policing). It's a capital project, probably borrowing.

Different kettle of fish. Don't need to cancel this funding to borrow for those purposes anyway

[John R]

All the suggestions re spending the funding relating to HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is on revenue expenditure (NHS, Policing). It's a capital project, probably borrowing.

Different kettle of fish. Don't need to cancel this funding to borrow for those purposes anyway

Very true, but it's so hard to get people to understand the difference.  Of course, you could always PFI HS2, and end up paying 5 times as much over the next 30 years and saddling successive governments with the bill and huge costs for any contract variations. (Actually, isn't that a bit like IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.), as we're already finding with the debate over muzzled or unmuzzled power?)

[Electric train]

All the suggestions re spending the funding relating to HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is on revenue expenditure (NHS, Policing). It's a capital project, probably borrowing.

Different kettle of fish. Don't need to cancel this funding to borrow for those purposes anyway

Very true, but it's so hard to get people to understand the difference.  Of course, you could always PFI HS2, and end up paying 5 times as much over the next 30 years and saddling successive governments with the bill and huge costs for any contract variations. (Actually, isn't that a bit like IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.), as we're already finding with the debate over muzzled or unmuzzled power?)

An example of Government investment via borrowing is HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel), UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Gov PLC sold its interest in this company with a profit, not only the line its self a separate deal is the land around Kings Cross the old Good Yard which was owned by BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) at the time it offered up for development.

The same will happen around Euston there is a lot of land already owned by Government or local authorities

[TaplowGreen]

All the suggestions re spending the funding relating to HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is on revenue expenditure (NHS, Policing). It's a capital project, probably borrowing.

Different kettle of fish. Don't need to cancel this funding to borrow for those purposes anyway

Very true, but it's so hard to get people to understand the difference.  Of course, you could always PFI HS2, and end up paying 5 times as much over the next 30 years and saddling successive governments with the bill and huge costs for any contract variations. (Actually, isn't that a bit like IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project. This will offer more capacity on routes, save money, give a consistent and safe service and meet customer requirements. Intended to replace HSTs.), as we're already finding with the debate over muzzled or unmuzzled power?)

Remind me.................how much is the overspend on Great Western electrification based on the original estimate? (so far).