HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

I can also understand why Stoke is miffed, but I can see how Crewe is a far better location for a HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) hub station, ideal in fact, given its location and the massive envelope of railway land that still exists there.  Surely it is going to provide excellent connectivity with the existing network given the number of radial lines (six directions) which currently feed it?  Far more than Stoke for example.

The finer details will no doubt come when an official announcement is made tomorrow, but surely given the space available any of the current feeder routes will still be able to access the new station, be it via a tunnel or viaduct, and that's if they need altering much at all.

[ellendune]

Not sure I understand where the new station will be presuambly South of the old.

Maybe it's just a complete rebuild (like Reading) to accommodate HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)). Given connectivity at Crewe, it does seem a better option than Stoke.

I was assuming it was going to be a massive rebuild. I cannot see why it should not be.

[Electric train]

Crewe is the logical choice over Stoke, the reason why Crewe developed originally was because it was the logical place for a railway hub (junction).

My guess the old station will redeveloped, its not that well placed anyway with its main entrance / exit onto a fairly narrow road bridge and is not a very functional station as it stands now.

My guess is there will be a few more of hub stations announced over the next few months, perhaps not on the scale of Crewe

[TonyK]

Crewe is an excellent place to change trains - I have done this many times. My impression is that it occupies a lot of land, probably used as sidings in days gone by, but capable of use by a new railway.

I have never yet left the station to see what Crewe has to offer as a town.

[Electric train]

I have never yet left the station to see what Crewe has to offer as a town.

Then you are fortunate 

Over the years I have stayed in Crewe quite a bit, used to have a desk in an office in Crewe, didn't use it much but every now and the boss would say oii paperwork   

The station is quite a walk from the town centre 10 mins ish, there is not a lot in the town centre in the way of shops or there wasn't the last time I was there about 8 years ago.  Don't get me wrong its pleasant enough but I wouldn't go out of my way to visit the town centre

[ellendune]

A recent reasoned local response to the HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) proposals with some reasonable local concerns and some positive suggestions from local churches in Euston. 

http://www.stpancraschurch.org/fileadmin/user_upload/files/Events/Euston_Voices_Rpt.pdf

[JayMac]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)): Government has no 'convincing case' for ^50bn rail line

The government has no convincing case for spending ^50bn building the HS2 rail link between London and the North, a report by the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee says.

The government's main arguments in favour of HS2 - increasing railway capacity and rebalancing the economy - were still to be proven, Peers said.

There are less-expensive options than HS2, they said on Wednesday.

A government spokesman said HS2 would deliver big benefits.

Lord Hollick, chairman of the Lords' committee, said overcrowding on the West Coast Main Line was largely a problem on commuter trains and on long-distance services on Friday nights and some weekends.

"The Government have not carried out a proper assessment of whether alternative ways of increasing capacity are more cost-effective than HS2," he said. In terms of rebalancing, London is likely to be the main beneficiary from HS2. Investment in improving rail links in the North of England might deliver much greater economic benefit at a fraction of the cost."

'Satisfactory answers'

Lord Hollick called on the Department for Transport to provide detailed answers to the questions set out by the committee.

"Parliament should not approve the enabling legislation that will allow HS2 work to begin until we have satisfactory answers to these key questions," he said.

The peer sets out arguments against the investment in a YouTube video.

A Department for Transport spokesman said the case for HS2 was "crystal clear" and claimed it would have a "transformational effect".

"It is a vital part of the government's long-term economic plan, strongly supported by Northern and Midland cities, alongside our plans for better east-west rail links confirmed in the Northern Transport Strategy last week. Demand for long distance rail travel has doubled in the past 15 years... it is crucial we press ahead with delivering HS2 on time and budget and we remain on track to start construction in 2017," the spokesman said.

'No blank cheque'

Shadow transport secretary Michael Dugher said that Labour supported HS2. However, he added: "It's vital that ministers win public confidence for this important investment and ensure that the economic benefits are felt as widely as possible. We have said there will be no blank cheque for the project under Labour."

Rhian Kelly, CBI director for business environment, said a modern railway was needed to deal with lack of capacity on the West Coast Mainline.

"HS2 will better connect eight of our 10 biggest cities, boosting local economies along and beyond the route together with complementary road and rail investment. It's vital we avoid any further delays to the project," she said.

The Lords report echoed a similar report published by the Commons Public Accounts Committee in January.

The MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) said that ministers lacked a "clear strategic plan for the rail network" and were "sceptical" about whether HS2 would deliver value for money. The ^50bn price tag included a "generous contingency" that could be used to mask cost increases, they added.

The first phase of HS2 will be between London and Birmingham opening in 2026, followed by a V-shaped section to Manchester and Yorkshire.

It promises to reduce journey times to London from 81 minutes to 49 minutes, and slash the trip to Manchester by an hour to just 68 minutes.

[IndustryInsider]

The feasibility study into how Scotland/North of England journey times to London could be reduced (to three hours or less from Glasgow/Edinburgh) by either upgrading the West or East Coast lines, or extending HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) further north has been released in a 'broad options' document:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/broad-options-for-upgraded-and-high-speed-railways-to-the-north-of-england-and-scotland

A very interesting read, and it's clear that all three options have their benefits and disadvantages.  I'll be very interested to see how this develops over time.

[John R]

What I find surprising about the analysis is the discussion around the constraints of Shap and Beattock. It says that the slower speeds attained by freight services significantly constrain the number of passenger services that would be possible, with electric hauled freight taking 15 mins and diesel hauled freight up to 30 mins in comparison with passenger services taking 6 minutes.

Surely before we spend billions to build bypasses of these lines, we should mandate electric haulage (and maybe should be even today for resilience reasons (it mentions trains slipping to a stand in wet conditions)). Admittedly the time saving would be less but the discussion around these locations is more around capacity and resilience. 

[Electric train]

Surely before we spend billions to build bypasses of these lines, we should mandate electric haulage (and maybe should be even today for resilience reasons (it mentions trains slipping to a stand in wet conditions)). Admittedly the time saving would be less but the discussion around these locations is more around capacity and resilience. 

The "mandating" to FOC^▸ (Freight Operating Company) how they operate is counter to the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) open competitive market for freight hauled in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).  The FOC would say there is not sufficient end to end electrification for many of their freight operations, Southampton to Glasgow for example the "freight spine" having been parked to at least CP 6 but more likely CP 7.

The answer for Shap and Beattock is "flighting" the trains with freight reception facilities at each end of shap and Beattock

[IndustryInsider]

Interview on Ian King Live on Sky with Alsthom positioning themselves (and their double decker TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse)/AGV's) as potential suppliers of the trains for the new line.

http://news.sky.com/video/1701566/double-decker-trains-for-hs2

[ChrisB]

Are the HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) tunnels going to be abke to take diuble-decker traibs with pantographs then?

[stuving]

Are the HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) tunnels going to be abke to take diuble-decker traibs with pantographs then?

Don't see why not. To reuse a previous post on my own:

HS2 is planned as UIC gauge GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line) - the same as HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel). This is the "biggest" UIC gauge, so other UIC gauges fit inside it - rolling stock can be smaller.

So if that's what Alstom are working to, yes.

[ChrisB]

Strewth, they'll be some tunnels.

Apols for the typos, the keys in an iphone aren't very easy to hit

[ellendune]

Of course those trains would not be able to run on the 'classic' routes