HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[paul7575]

For example, why is electrification out of Birmingham being extended to Bromsgrove but no further? Surely it makes sense to wire Bristol to Birmingham and then Birmingham to the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line).   

Birmingham to Bromsgrove and Birmingham to Bristol are two fundamentally different service groups.

Bromsgrove provides space for a better terminus, with central turn back platform, for the intended 3tph LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) Cross City local suburban service with balanced destinations of 3 each to Bromsgrove and Redditch.  Rolling stock is already being provided for this improvement. 
 
XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Bristol to Birmingham and Sheffield to the ECML would be almost certainly a CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024) project, I'd expect after the currently planned work it would be about the highest priority.  But it also requires a subsequent major change to XC's rolling stock fleet to make it viable. 

Paul

[Rhydgaled]

On due consideration I am now agianst HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)).

This is 4 main reasons.

it's London terminal is Euston. it should be athrough station linking HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) 2 and HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) or at least teh Great Eastern

Birmingham is a terminal station a long way from New Street. It should be through station with links to Wolverhampton.

Manchester is a terminal station it should be at through station with links to the North West network, although possibly in its favour it's right by Piccadilly

...

I'm not against building a high speed line in principle I just don't see the point spending millions on a line that serves 3 cities with terminal stations.

Agreed, I am in favor of the principle of HS2 (aside from the Leeds spur) but disagree with the terminal stations, particularly the Birmingham and London ones.

The Birimingham station (unless they've changed it) is actually in a good position, close to Moor Street and New Street, but there needs to be a tunnel portal instead of buffer stops at one end of it, HS2 trains to Manchester/Liverpool/Chester/Holyhead (if wired)/Glasgow etc. could then call at Birmingham central on route rather than only Birmingham airport. A new classic line spur to Wolverhampton off the HS2 line north of Birmingham might also be a good idea.

Manchester I'm not as worried about, since it is a fair distance from London and going via both Birmingham and Manchester (rather than just Birmingham) might slow up Glasgow trains a little too much, but providing London-Birmingham/Manchester/Glasgow, Birmingham-Manchester/Glasgow and Manchester-Glasgow services all in one train does sound appealing and might help fill trains enough to warrant high frequencies on all routes.

[stuving]

On due consideration I am now agianst HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)).

This is 4 main reasons.

it's London terminal is Euston. it should be athrough station linking HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) 2 and HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) or at least teh Great Eastern

Birmingham is a terminal station a long way from New Street. It should be through station with links to Wolverhampton.

Manchester is a terminal station it should be at through station with links to the North West network, although possibly in its favour it's right by Piccadilly

Leeds is a terminal station a long way from Central, again it should be a through station with links to the West Yorkshire network.

If you look at the LGVs^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle) in France Germany and Spain they all serve the principle stations on the existing network with through trains and often terminate at places not served by the LGV.

I'm not against building a high speed line in principle I just don't see the point spending millions on a line that serves 3 cities with terminal stations.

I am still undecided on the point of the proposed stations at East Midalnds and Medowhall.

... or look at it this way.

No-one prefers a train that stops on their route. The disadvantage of going point to point is that it needs more station capacity (platforms and paths) to terminate a train from A at B and start it as a new one to C, and run a separate trains from A to C, rather than one from A to C via B.

On the other hand it's much easier, and cheaper, to get (or expand) a terminus in a city centre than a through line. And all the termini are within a train's length (200m) of the (or an) existing main station.

So if you put your money into termini, you should get as many seats on each route, faster journeys, but maybe not as frequent.

Then you add in "hybrid" trains that run on HS2 and then onto other places on "classic" lines, such as A to D and B to D. These do not also serve C to D, but then the line from C to D isn't high speed and already has trains.

So I don't think the choice such a clear-cut one. Of course you may still not like some of the compromises HS2 have arrived at; neither do I. For example, I think more "hybrid" and fewer "captive" trains looks a better bet, and I'm not convinced these new termini have enough platforms. But remember that we didn't have all of the inputs they had (luckily for us).

[Lee]

The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has launched a consultation on a possible location for a new high speed rail college. A final decision on the preferred location is expected in June 2014, and the college is expected to open in 2017.

The consultation closes on 30 April 2014.

[caliwag]

Ha...the attached will stop HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) in it's tracks (excuse the tabloid pun) if the serious are prepared to digest it.

http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2014/03/rail-740-hs2-is-the-wrong-scheme-in-wrong-place/

[JayMac]

A Freedom of Information request has revealed that on a typical autumn weekday, there remains plenty of spare capacity for both suburban and long distance services at all times.

That comes as no surprise whatsoever to me. Cost has always been my over-riding concern with HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)), but I've also long been aware that the capacity arguments put forward by the pro HS2 side may not be as bad as they were leading us to believe.

[paul7575]

Isn't the whole point of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) to pre-emptively provide the capacity that is believed necessary in 20 to 30 years time?

Paul

[ellendune]

Ha...the attached will stop HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) in it's tracks (excuse the tabloid pun) if the serious are prepared to digest it.

http://www.christianwolmar.co.uk/2014/03/rail-740-hs2-is-the-wrong-scheme-in-wrong-place/

We all know that Christian Wolmar has been against HS2 from the start.  I don't think this adds much to the debate amongst those who look at the detail so no it will not stop it in its tracks. 

There is a debate to be had as to whether this is the right scheme, but so far the anti HS2 brigade have only put forward shallow arguments that while they may make good headlines in the Daily Mail, they have not stood up in court where arguments get a more serious consideration.

[JayMac]

Nothing ruled on by the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court was about whether HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) was needed. Merely that all steps already taken were lawful.

[Lee]

Consultants report backs HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) station at Sheffield Victoria - http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2014/03/12-report-suggests-hs2-station-in.html

[brompton rail]

Amongst the reasons are Sheffield Victoria (city Centre) station would generate more development than out of town at Meadowhall, where the existing shopping centre threatens the City Centre. Hopefully this approach will be adopted, both in Sheffield and at Derby / Nottingham where a station midway between these 2 cities is proposed, connected by tram / train services. Would passengers from London to Bristol and v.v. be keen to have to travel from the City Centre by tram to Parkway before boarding a faster train to London?

[Lee]

Interesting tactics being deployed by the Stop HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) folks - http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/more-news/call-for-hs2-opponents-to-stand-up-and-be-counted-1-5930983

Interesting too that they need more money to pay their campaign manager's wages.

[TonyK]

The message is clear - dip your hands to your pockets or the campaign manager walks. I shall keep my cheque book closed.

[Lee]

Michael Roberts gives a rallying call to the pro-HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) folks - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/14/hs2-future-backbone-britain-railway-high-speed-line

[Lee]

Shall I compare thee to Brunel's Great Western Railway?... - http://hs2northsouthrailline.tumblr.com/post/79464814964/the-railways-will-do-as-much-for-mankind-as-the