HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[Chris from Nailsea]

From the Coventry Telegraph:

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) could 'revolutionise travel for Coventry and Warwickshire'

A respected rail expert has claimed the controversial HS2 line could revolutionise travel for the people of Coventry and Warwickshire.

It comes after a YouGov poll commissioned by opponents of the ^32million project found almost two-thirds of people were now against the non-stop London to Birmingham line.

William Barter is a rail planning consultant who has worked for a host of top firms including Network Rail and Transport for London. His advice has been sought on the viability of train lines around the world and their impact.

Transport secretary Justine Greening is due to make a decision on whether to recommend the 250mph bullet train to Parliament in a matter of weeks.

Meanwhile, a fierce battle for hearts and minds is taking place between those in favour and those opposed. Mr Barter told the Telegraph HS2 could vastly improve connectivity within the West Midlands.

^The problem with the (existing) West Coast Mainline is it is one railway trying to do two or three different jobs ^ and not doing any particularly well. At peak times priority is given to fast through trains at the expense of local services. If you live in Coventry now, there isn^t a train to Milton Keynes. HS2 would divert long distance traffic on to the new line so trains would be able to stop at more local stations and serve more local markets.^

The high speed rail plan would cut through Warwickshire and along the western edge of Coventry.

Two out of the three city MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) have joined Coventry City Council and Warwickshire County Council in fighting it.

Many have raised concerns about Coventry losing its much-valued three fast trains an hour to London.

^Logically, after HS2, I can^t see any way there^s still going to be three trains an hour,^ Mr Barter said. ^But there should be two, and there will be more useful services stopping at variety of other places. For those who want the faster service to London there^s HS2. What Coventry gets out of HS2 is still up for grabs.

^What annoys me is MPs campaigning against it, saying local services might suffer. Local services could improve but only if MPs and councils get their act together and put forward the right arguments. If they don^t start trying to fight now it will be too late to campaign for these extra local services.^

Mr Barter claimed the main benefit of HS2 could be improved connectivity between the new station ^ based near the NEC^» (National Exhibition Centre - about) ^ and the north, rather than to London.

[eightf48544]

I am still siting on the fence over HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) whilst in general terms I would love to see High Speed Rail in GB^▸ (Great Britain), I keep coming up against geography.

It seems to me we are too small an island to justify LGV^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle). Ideally it seems stations should be say roughly 100 miles apart to justify having to stop and accelerate.

Now Using my Road Atlas I get

London Birmingham 106 (ideal)

West Coast                                                      East Coast

Birmingham Manchester 78 (just?)                     Birmingham Leeds 109 (ideal)
Manchester Carlise 115 (ideal)                           Leeds Newcastle 96 (OK)
Carlise Glasgow 95 (OK)                                    Newcastle Edinburgh 104 (ideal)

However we've already seen Milton Keynes wants a station.

On the West Coast what about Preston? Plus Warrington and Wigan
On the East coast there's Derby Nottingham Sheffield who would probably like a station and York is not going to be too pleased not having a station.

So we really need stations every 50 miles, except perhaps in Scotland, this will increase journey times and lessen the benefits of HS2.

Unless these places are to be served by spurs on and off HS2 which will mean large flying or burrowing junctions, which are presumably fairly expensive.

Also is Euston really the right station I still the idea of through station under Euston Road between Euston and Kings Cross with a link to HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) if we could sort out proper border controls., or become less paranoid about our borders.

Unfortunately having knocked HS2 I realy can't see an alternative to HS2 for the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) particulay South of Birmingham. Obviously 4 tracking from Birmingham to Rugby would help as would possibly extending the 4 tracks South from Rugby to Roade, but that would then put 6 tracks into 4 Southwards.  

I am also worried that  spending a lot of moneyy on this one project will mean that cheaper schemes to ease capactiy problems on other lines will be shelved. It would be interesting to compare the costs per potential passenger of reopening to say Portishead with HS2. Just a simple division of the estimate cost by estimated number of passengers per year would give an idea.

So here's the challenge can anyone convince me one way or the other?

[Not from Brighton]

WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) overloaded. Upgrading is not good value for money, so build new. If building new, might as well push the boat out.
The French have one (several).

[ellendune]

I am still siting on the fence over HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) whilst in general terms I would love to see High Speed Rail in GB^▸ (Great Britain), I keep coming up against geography.

If HS2 is to work then some people are going to have to learn that better journey times on classic rail and connecting into HS2 is better than no HS2.  As youy say it can't stop everywhere so some people are going to be disappointed.  But they will get better classic rail services which should still be an improvement. 

I am also worried that  spending a lot of moneyy on this one project will mean that cheaper schemes to ease capactiy problems on other lines will be shelved. It would be interesting to compare the costs per potential passenger of reopening to say Portishead with HS2. Just a simple division of the estimate cost by estimated number of passengers per year would give an idea.

So here's the challenge can anyone convince me one way or the other?

One of the main lessons learnt from WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) route upgrade was that working in a live railway is phenominally expensive.  If HS2 is not built then the sort of schemes you mention will be tried and it will cost a huge amount of money for less gain. O and it will bring the WCML to a stop again for years while they do it.

The result would be a view that the rail industry is not value for money again.  And no further investment for Portishead or anything else. 

[Chris from Nailsea]

... and, interestingly, one of the results of my 'merging' of these topics is that I was reminded of some posts on this subject from a couple of years ago - which discuss exactly the same concerns: see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5138.msg47808#msg47808 for example. 

[eightf48544]

Thanks for bringing Japan into the equation. i remeber going to atalk on Japenese railways at one of my clubs and one of the things we saw on avideo was a non stop train passing a stopped train stopped in the station.

But it was within 2 minutes of the first train stopping could we run to that precision?

I agree that any intermediate staions on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) need to be 4 track as on the LGVs^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle) in France.

Also agree with ellendune that connections into HS2 will be vital, and take the point of cost and disruption of upgrading  a classic line.

A similar point was also made by Not from Brighton. I like their idea that if we are going to build HS2 lets do it properly "puh the boat out" and not try and get it on the cheap.

So For HS2 2 points, against 0. 

[Andrew1939 from West Oxon]

I think the Coventry Telegraph has got its Millions and Billions mixed up. If only HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) could be built for ^32Million!

[Btline]

It is now highly likely that HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) will be given the go ahead. A damming report by Network Rail has slammed campaigners who have suggested modernising the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line). They say it is not good enough and will cause years of disruption. Horrified objectors woke up to the news this morning; after a long struggle, they now face the arrival of bulldozers in 5 years time.

I have to say, the stopHS2 did not help themselves by spreading LIES:

*HS2 won't benefit x [x= a town on a current railway, e.g. Lichfield, that would be relived by HS2 - LIE]
*B'ham Curzon Street is 15 minutes away from the centre [Blatantly haven't been to B'ham before - it's a 3 minute walk to New Street and a 30 SECOND walk to the Bull Ring/Moor Street station - LIE]
*Modernising the WCML will solve the problems - LIE what about commuters from Peterborough, Bedford and Milton Keynes south?
*Peak time trains from Euston are half empty - biggest LIE of them all - the campaigners blatantly don't travel by train - says a lot!
*First Class carriages are empty - not in the peaks there not, and what about the lost revenue when they're axed? - LIE

If you spread lies, you lose. Just look at the Yes2AV campaign. The British public are not stupid.

[Electric train]

There are some very good common sense reasons why NR^» (Network Rail - home page) knows (and yes it is know and not think) improving / adding capacity to the existing routes will not work, NR came about in part because of the over running time and accelerating cost of WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) upgrade.  Upgrading the existing routes would also draw investment away from the rest of the National Network.

NR are not going to be the owners of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) they are keen to be infrastructure maintainer and operator like they are with HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel)

[paul7575]

*B'ham Curzon Street is 15 minutes away from the centre...

This has seemed to me to have been an own goal by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  

It was always quite clear from their own drawings that the entrance to the new HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) station will be adjacent to Moor St station, indeed extending over the road. (Queensway?)  Mentioning Curzon St at all seems to have been a sop to those who think that the old station building there ought to be still in use...

Some documents also refer to the location as Fazely St - also irrelevant. As far as passenger accessibility is concerned, the station is at Moor St.

Paul    

[Tim]

WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) overloaded. Upgrading is not good value for money, so build new. If building new, might as well push the boat out.
The French have one (several).

Personally, I think if we need a new line it ought to be a 80 to 100 mph freight line to a huge loading gauge suitable for piggy-back lorries.  Cheaper to build than HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) and less environmentally damaging (cos it can go round bends reducing the need for tunnels) and would free up capacity on Both the passenger railway and the Motorways.  Speeds on existing routes (which already go to and from were people live and work)  could be edged up to 140 150 mph were possible by getting rid of slow frieght and incremental improvements.   

[Electric train]

*B'ham Curzon Street is 15 minutes away from the centre...

This has seemed to me to have been an own goal by the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  

It was always quite clear from their own drawings that the entrance to the new HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) station will be adjacent to Moor St station, indeed extending over the road. (Queensway?)  Mentioning Curzon St at all seems to have been a sop to those who think that the old station building there ought to be still in use...

Some documents also refer to the location as Fazely St - also irrelevant. As far as passenger accessibility is concerned, the station is at Moor St.

Paul    

The HS2 Brum station has to be seen as an interchange point, Curzon St is well place for access to other routes better to have a shuttle service to the center of Brum and other West Midlands destinations

WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) overloaded. Upgrading is not good value for money, so build new. If building new, might as well push the boat out.
The French have one (several).

Personally, I think if we need a new line it ought to be a 80 to 100 mph freight line to a huge loading gauge suitable for piggy-back lorries.  Cheaper to build than HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) and less environmentally damaging (cos it can go round bends reducing the need for tunnels) and would free up capacity on Both the passenger railway and the Motorways.  Speeds on existing routes (which already go to and from were people live and work)  could be edged up to 140 150 mph were possible by getting rid of slow frieght and incremental improvements.   

While there is a lot of freight in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) I am not sure there is sufficient to warrant a dedicated freight only line, move the most perishable commodity, people, onto its own dedicated route which will free up capacity for the 80 / 100 mph freight to path in with traffic on the classic routes

[mjones]

Personally, I think if we need a new line it ought to be a 80 to 100 mph freight line to a huge loading gauge suitable for piggy-back lorries.  Cheaper to build than HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) and less environmentally damaging (cos it can go round bends reducing the need for tunnels) and would free up capacity on Both the passenger railway and the Motorways.  Speeds on existing routes (which already go to and from were people live and work)  could be edged up to 140 150 mph were possible by getting rid of slow frieght and incremental improvements.   

Again, this is covered in the original studies...

A new conventional speed doesn't save that much money- only 10% cheaper is the figure quoted in the studies. Maybe a slower freight line, which wouldn't need stations etc would be a bit cheaper still, but the key point is that it wouldn't provide anything like as much additional capacity, and still leaves fast trains conflicting with stopping trains on the existing lines. So you save a bit of money up front, but you get vastly less capacity, and by not offering significantly improved journey times you attract vastly fewer new passengers, so get vastly less revenue. All of which make the business case far worse than building a new high speed line.

[paul7575]

The HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) Brum station has to be seen as an interchange point, Curzon St is well place for access to other routes better to have a shuttle service to the center of Brum and other West Midlands destinations

You seem to be describing what you want to happen, I'm describing what the published plan is.  A rail shuttle service isn't mentioned anywhere, and the new station is for HS2 services only - and passengers willl enter and leave nowhere near Curzon St, so it is a misleading name...

Paul

[Btline]

They should re-brand the station as Moor Street - it could be the same complex in the end. Then build the Bordersley curves and Platform 4 at Snow Hill and get Nottingham, Cardiff, Tamworth, Leicester and Peterborough train in there too. Then it can have even better connections than the Snow Hill lines.

A new freight line would not help anyone. How many fright trains run at rush hour? We need passenger capacity now on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line), MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) and ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line). HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) delivers this. Each express removed from these lines can be replaced by a semi fast 12 car congestion buster special with hundreds of seats! They would go to Northampton, Derby and Peterborough.

Another LIE in the Guardian today - someone from Stop HS2 claiming it doesn't connect to HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel) unless you walk along Euston Road. Umm, what about the track connection - LIE? Why do they publish so much rubbish? Another person compared HS2 to the 3rd runway at Heathrow, saying it'll get axed. Umm, the Tories were always going to axe the 3rd runway - it was nothing to do with the local campaign!