HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[TonyN]

Well if they cancel HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) now we will have the worlds largest and most expensive Bat cave.

[Electric train]

Well if they cancel HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) now we will have the worlds largest and most expensive Bat cave.

Unlikely, the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Government see it as a major investment part of their getting the economy moving; the construction will employ a lot of people either directly or indirectly.

The new north of Watford Conservative MP^▸ (Member of Parliament)'s will have little concern for the Home Counties that HS2 with speed through, as they will see it as part of the levelling up

[eXPassenger]

Information on the new Chilterns Tunnels TBM launch site here: https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news/hs2-reveals-striking-new-images-of-first-tunnel-launch-site

I would have gone for Times Roman.

[grahame]

Information on the new Chilterns Tunnels TBM launch site here: https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news/hs2-reveals-striking-new-images-of-first-tunnel-launch-site

I would have gone for Times Roman.

Talking of tunnels from times Roman ...  https://www.livescience.com/41559-rome-quarry-collapse.html
(sorry - been a very serious-topic afternoon)

Deep under the streets and buildings of Rome is a maze of tunnels and quarries that dates back to the very beginning of this ancient city. Now, geologists are venturing beneath Rome to map these underground passageways, hoping to prevent modern structures from crumbling into the voids below.

[onthecushions]

It's a whopping great cutting for a two track railway.

It looks like the designers work in feet, the contractors in metres.

OTC

[eXPassenger]

Talking of tunnels from times Roman ...  https://www.livescience.com/41559-rome-quarry-collapse.html
(sorry - been a very serious-topic afternoon)

An interesting article.  I seem to remember the same thing happening in Bath.

[TonyK]

Information on the new Chilterns Tunnels TBM launch site here: https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news/hs2-reveals-striking-new-images-of-first-tunnel-launch-site

I would have gone for Times Roman.

And so would I! Calibri at a push.

[4064ReadingAbbey]

A couple of points...

The collapsing ancient tunnels in Rome and Bath has also happened in parts of Paris. It's also build on easily tunnelled rock which happens to be the original source of Plaster of Paris...

When my wife and I were living there some twenty five years ago there were several stories of holes suddenly appearing and buildings cracking. In fact the same thing occurred in Reading about twenty years ago when part of Field Road suddenly dropped into previously unknown chalk mines. The story can be found at <https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/victorian-brickmaker-responsible-field-road-4197053>

My other point, more pertinent to this HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) thread, concerns the station to be built on the Great Western Main Line at OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) to permit connections to be made between HS2 and GW^▸ (Great Western) services, in particular to and from the HEx services.

This link has come about because the dedicated HS2 spur to Heathrow would not have been economic for a variety of reasons so connections to Heathrow every 15 minutes would solve the issue of traffic flows from Birmingham (and points north) to Heathrow. See the Atkins Demand and Appraisal Report dated 2012, to be found here <https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/370118/Demand_and_Appraisal_Report_London-West_Midlands.pdf>.

So far, so good. When this was first proposed some ten years ago the density of trains on the Mains into and out of Paddington would have made it just possible to stop the HEx trains without too great a knock-on effect on the main line trains.

However the very tight scheduling and additional trains in the 2019 timetable now means that if the HEx trains stop then all the trains using the Mains will have to stop even though all the platforms will have two faces for each line. The stop will cost about 4 minutes in running time.  

Figure 5.3 of the Demand and Appraisal Report shows user benefits for the HS2 stretching out to Reading. As I read it there are no user benefits from HS2 accruing to passengers travelling to or originating from towns and cities further west.

To my mind this seems to me to be a case of the tail waging the dog as every passenger travelling to Paddington using the long distance high speed services (aka InterCity... ) will have his or her journey lengthened simply to benefit some HS2 passengers.

I hope that I am incorrect in my analysis, but it wasn't in the HS2 prospectus that the construction of HS2 would mean that all GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) expresses would be decelerated.

[eXPassenger]

It has been commented elsewhere that many intercity passengers who will be travelling on with Crossrail will find it quicker and less crowded to join Crossrail at OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) and not Paddington.  Apart from that I agree with you as speeds to Birmingham from West of Reading will not improve with HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)).

[Electric train]

It's a whopping great cutting for a two track railway.

It looks like the designers work in feet, the contractors in metres.

OTC

Remember it will be twin bore 8.8m internal diameter 20m apart.

I suspect when finished there will be high speed crossovers in the area outside the portals also there will be a number of service buildings

[4064ReadingAbbey]

It has been commented elsewhere that many intercity passengers who will be travelling on with Crossrail will find it quicker and less crowded to join Crossrail at OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) and not Paddington.  Apart from that I agree with you as speeds to Birmingham from West of Reading will not improve with HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)).

I've also seen this suggested but the rough calculation I've done shows this argument to be spurious.

Each Crossrail train can carry 1,500 passengers and in the peaks there will be 24 of these per hour - 36,000 people per hour. By Atkins’ calculations (Table 4.2 of the Demand and Appraisal Report) some 37% of HS2 passengers will change at OOC - a total of 55,800 per day to the West Midlands (and by implication in the reverse direction) or an average of 3,000 per hour in each direction over an 18 hour day.

Even assuming that all these passengers change onto inbound Crossrail trains that’s still only two Crossrail trains' worth per hour. One can expect to double or triple that volume for the full ‘Y’-shaped HS2 network - but that’s still only 6 trains full per hour. A certain percentage of the flow off HS2 will travel westbound from OOC as the User Benefit maps suggest so the eastbound loadings will be slightly lower than the numbers I gave above. It seems to me that even allowing for the expected loads from the western suburbs there will be room on Crossrail for passengers changing at Paddington on inward journeys. In the peak hours one does not necessarily expect a seat on the Tube so I don't to see why this should be a consideration on Crossrail. In any event Crossrail journeys through London will be quick so one will not have to stand for long: 4 minutes to Tottenham Court Road and 17 minutes to Canary Wharf.

[TonyK]

Even assuming that all these passengers change onto inbound Crossrail trains that’s still only two Crossrail trains' worth per hour. One can expect to double or triple that volume for the full ‘Y’-shaped HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) network - but that’s still only 6 trains full per hour. A certain percentage of the flow off HS2 will travel westbound from OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) as the User Benefit maps suggest so the eastbound loadings will be slightly lower than the numbers I gave above. It seems to me that even allowing for the expected loads from the western suburbs there will be room on Crossrail for passengers changing at Paddington on inward journeys. In the peak hours one does not necessarily expect a seat on the Tube so I don't to see why this should be a consideration on Crossrail. In any event Crossrail journeys through London will be quick so one will not have to stand for long: 4 minutes to Tottenham Court Road and 17 minutes to Canary Wharf.

The current method of making it into central London is to head for Paddington, then go for a nice walk with a few thousand other people to the tube. A change of platform at OOC is going to be so much easier.

[4064ReadingAbbey]

Even assuming that all these passengers change onto inbound Crossrail trains that’s still only two Crossrail trains' worth per hour. One can expect to double or triple that volume for the full ‘Y’-shaped HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) network - but that’s still only 6 trains full per hour. A certain percentage of the flow off HS2 will travel westbound from OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) as the User Benefit maps suggest so the eastbound loadings will be slightly lower than the numbers I gave above. It seems to me that even allowing for the expected loads from the western suburbs there will be room on Crossrail for passengers changing at Paddington on inward journeys. In the peak hours one does not necessarily expect a seat on the Tube so I don't to see why this should be a consideration on Crossrail. In any event Crossrail journeys through London will be quick so one will not have to stand for long: 4 minutes to Tottenham Court Road and 17 minutes to Canary Wharf.

The current method of making it into central London is to head for Paddington, then go for a nice wwalk with a few thousand other people to the tube. A change of platform at OOC is going to be so much easier.

And long may it continue...!

However reaching the Crossrail platforms at Paddington will be a whole new experience. Walk towards the Lawn, pass the barriers and turn right. The entrance to Crossrail will be through the arches where the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s booking hall used to be located beside the taxi set-down road alongside Eastbourne Terrace and then down escalators, stairs or lifts to the Crossrail platforms. The Crossrail platforms are under Eastbourne Terrace.

It will be closer than any of the existing tube or sub-surface platforms. Platform 1 arrivals will have it best of all, it will be right alongside.

Edit: corrected quotes.

[Electric train]

Even assuming that all these passengers change onto inbound Crossrail trains that’s still only two Crossrail trains' worth per hour. One can expect to double or triple that volume for the full ‘Y’-shaped HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) network - but that’s still only 6 trains full per hour. A certain percentage of the flow off HS2 will travel westbound from OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) as the User Benefit maps suggest so the eastbound loadings will be slightly lower than the numbers I gave above. It seems to me that even allowing for the expected loads from the western suburbs there will be room on Crossrail for passengers changing at Paddington on inward journeys. In the peak hours one does not necessarily expect a seat on the Tube so I don't to see why this should be a consideration on Crossrail. In any event Crossrail journeys through London will be quick so one will not have to stand for long: 4 minutes to Tottenham Court Road and 17 minutes to Canary Wharf.

The current method of making it into central London is to head for Paddington, then go for a nice wwalk with a few thousand other people to the tube. A change of platform at OOC is going to be so much easier.

As we are talking HS2 the area it covers is mainly passengers heading to Euston and not Paddington.

Even assuming that all these passengers change onto inbound Crossrail trains that’s still only two Crossrail trains' worth per hour. One can expect to double or triple that volume for the full ‘Y’-shaped HS2 network - but that’s still only 6 trains full per hour. A certain percentage of the flow off HS2 will travel westbound from OOC as the User Benefit maps suggest so the eastbound loadings will be slightly lower than the numbers I gave above. It seems to me that even allowing for the expected loads from the western suburbs there will be room on Crossrail for passengers changing at Paddington on inward journeys. In the peak hours one does not necessarily expect a seat on the Tube so I don't to see why this should be a consideration on Crossrail. In any event Crossrail journeys through London will be quick so one will not have to stand for long: 4 minutes to Tottenham Court Road and 17 minutes to Canary Wharf.

The current method of making it into central London is to head for Paddington, then go for a nice wwalk with a few thousand other people to the tube. A change of platform at OOC is going to be so much easier.

And long may it continue...!

However reaching the Crossrail platforms at Paddington will be a whole new experience. Walk towards the Lawn, pass the barriers and turn right. The entrance to Crossrail will be through the arches where the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s booking hall used to be located beside the taxi set-down road alongside Eastbourne Terrace and then down escalators, stairs or lifts to the Crossrail platforms. The Crossrail platforms are under Eastbourne Terrace.

It will be closer than any of the existing tube or sub-surface platforms. Platform 1 arrivals will have it best of all, it will be right alongside.

Edit: corrected quotes.

Its quite likely a number of trains to / from the West will call at OOC for the interchange with both HS2 and Crossrail

[TonyK]

And long may it continue...!

However reaching the Crossrail platforms at Paddington will be a whole new experience. Walk towards the Lawn, pass the barriers and turn right. The entrance to Crossrail will be through the arches where the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s booking hall used to be located beside the taxi set-down road alongside Eastbourne Terrace and then down escalators, stairs or lifts to the Crossrail platforms. The Crossrail platforms are under Eastbourne Terrace.

It will be closer than any of the existing tube or sub-surface platforms. Platform 1 arrivals will have it best of all, it will be right alongside.

True, and I will still do that occasionally, but I had in mind the occasions when my ultimate destination was closer to Tottenham Court Road, or if I was heading for my sister's in Norwich, via Liverpool Street.