HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[Btline]

If the Tories push through the going via Heathrow option, it will make the journey time reductions much less impressive. With a bit of investment, Euston to New Street could be got down to 1 hour - which is fine. If HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) goes via heathrow, I can't see times less than 50 minutes working. (when you consider that the preferred route will take 45 minutes)

[caliwag]

Mr Wolmar, on the same Today programme, suggested that a serious rethink of the route, presumably by a new administration, would set the project back 4-5 years, just in time for, err, for the next election.
It ain't going to happen...where are all these 20000 pax per hour London-Birmingham going to come from, and more importantly why?
Far better value for money to continue with new hubs and let millions more benefit from the shrinking purse. The UK^▸ (United Kingdom) is not Spain, France, USA, Oz and now even Morocco...all big empty countries with I imagine no organised nimbyism.  

[devon_metro]

The UK^▸ (United Kingdom) quite simply doesn't need a High Speed line. It will benefit only a fraction of people, now lets get some new DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) ordered helping to alleviate overcrowding across the whole country.

[Btline]

The UK^▸ (United Kingdom) quite simply doesn't need a High Speed line. It will benefit only a fraction of people, now lets get some new DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) ordered helping to alleviate overcrowding across the whole country.

I'm tempted to agree despite the mouth watering journey times. BUT the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) needs more capacity. So add a 5th or 6th track as far as Rugby and spend the rest of the money on DMUs, electrification.

[devon_metro]

The UK^▸ (United Kingdom) quite simply doesn't need a High Speed line. It will benefit only a fraction of people, now lets get some new DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) ordered helping to alleviate overcrowding across the whole country.

I'm tempted to agree despite the mouth watering journey times. BUT the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) needs more capacity. So add a 5th or 6th track as far as Rugby and spend the rest of the money on DMUs, electrification.

But does it? I've not heard any stories of the 3tph being overcrowded. Instant capacity relief would be installation of ERTMS^▸ (European Rail Traffic Management System. A future railway signalling system, with equipment located in the driver's cab, rather than at the lineside) cab signalling.

[Deltic]

I'm disappointed to find such a lack of enthusiasm for high-speed rail in the coffee shop. 

Adding additional lines to existing infrastructure is needed in certain areas (e.g. Swindon - Kemble, Oxford - Worcester) but it is disruptive to the existing service (witness the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) upgrade) and difficult to achieve really high speed when traffic is mixed and there are lots of junctions.

I believe that the delay in starting construction is damaging the British economy or our environment and probably both.  There is at least political consensus that it is needed, years after the French have already completed a comprehensive network of high speed routes.  What is lacking is consensus over the route and this needs to be sorted out before we can move on.  But many of our main lines are operating near to capacity, our motorways are also full and we don't want to encourage more short haul air travel.

We need to free up capacity on our existing lines to provide reasonable services to smaller towns, such as Melksham!

[JayMac]

The Newsnight item is available on BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) iPlayer until 2259 26/02/10.

http://bbc.co.uk/i/qxfy5

[Chafford1]

An unusually easy ride given to Andrew Adonis by Paxo, perhaps time constraints didn't allow him to push the point about how much HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is expected to cost. Paxo could also have pressed him further on the favoured route(s) contained in the report which Andrew Adonis is currently sitting on.

I didn't see the report but I am sorry to read this analysis.  For those like me who grew up with a downtrodden railway recovering from Beeching, all talk of High Speed Rail brings out wild enthusiasm.

My guess is that the preferred route is the old GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) main line to Birmingham, re-instating four tracking through most of the route.

There is a train on most days from Paddington that takes this route (11 00 or so Princes Risborough).  Take the train and see the potential.   

I'm sorry to see that, having supposedly backed High Speed Rail, the Conservatives seem now to be having cold feet.

Not a good sign for the future.  And there I will leave politics......

HS2 would be a completely separate line from the Chiltern Mainline. However, there may be some mileage in developing this line further (Evergreen 4?) as a cheap alternative to HS2 if money were scarce - i.e reinstatement of passing loops, 4 tracking from Dorridge to Birmingham Moor Street, running fast services into Paddington rather than Marylebone once Crossrail releases platforms at Paddington, electrification, longer platforms etc.

[grahame]

I'm disappointed to find such a lack of enthusiasm for high-speed rail in the coffee shop. 

I'm not sure if higher speed or higher frequency are the best service and investment for the future. If I'm hanging around at Salisbury for 40 minutes for a train to Trowbridge - journey time 32 minutes - how would I like my 72 minutes elapsed time cut? Would I prefer a service every 30 minutes rather than at sixty minute intervals, or a journey time that's cut from 32 minutes to 22?  The heart says "make it faster", the head says "make it more frequent", and will continue to do so until the frequency of the services is at least a half of the journey reduction.

[Deltic]

I think that my point is that high speed rail would release capacity on the "classic" lines to provide more frequent services to existing stations.  Part of the difficulty in re-establishing a decent service to Melksham is that the trains must compete for space between Wootton Bassett and Swindon with four HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) per hour in each direction.

[woody]

Listened to Theresa Villiers this am didn't understand a word except they (the Tories) are not going to look at the report until it's published.

Can anyone explain why?

No matter what route is take north west out of London it will carve it's way through Tory heartlands, for instance if the old GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)/GCR^» (Gloucester - next trains) route is used this will cut its way through some very blue areas which are areas where the likes of UKIP could put up a strong challenge also some of the inner London parts BNP^▸ (Barnstaple station (in the context of the railways)) might get a foot hold.

The Tory's have never liked the railways which is made even worse by the failure of their privatisation model of Railtrack and the myriad of competing TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)'s and maintenance contractors

Ditto
My fear is that any future HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) project will be at the expense of improvements to the classic rail routes (ie Great Western).All this against a backdrop of tough financial decisions that will soon have to be made by government either Labour or conservative.Certainly under the conservatives the principal that rich get richer and the poor get poorer has been clear to see at work since rail privatisation which is why FGW^▸ (First Great Western) is still running refurbished 33year old HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) on its main lines and pacers on overcrowded local services.

[Btline]

I think that my point is that high speed rail would release capacity on the "classic" lines to provide more frequent services to existing stations.  Part of the difficulty in re-establishing a decent service to Melksham is that the trains must compete for space between Wootton Bassett and Swindon with four HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) per hour in each direction.

But HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) won't really. The Watford - Dudley, Milton Keynes - Birmingham and Rugby - Wolverhampton flows will still have to use the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line), along with any services that stop south of Rugby.

[Timmer]

I think the huge amount of money needed for HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) could be spent country wide on improving services that suffer continous overcrowding by providing new and longer rolling stock. HS2 would benefit the few and not the many.

[Btline]

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) would benefit the few and not the many.

Surprised the Tories aren't fully behind it then!

[moonrakerz]

I think the huge amount of money needed for HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) could be spent country wide on improving services that suffer continous overcrowding by providing new and longer rolling stock. HS2 would benefit the few and not the many.

Make that man Minister for Transport !!!