HS2 - Government proposals, alternative routes and general discussion

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

Anything’s gonna be better than what’s there now.   

[Electric train]

Euston going from "World Class" to "functional"

https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/hs2/hs2-abandons-world-class-euston-ambitions-for-highly-functional-approach-30-06-2022/

Euston in its 1960's form is dysfunctional from a passenger experience point.  The current station has a large area at the Western end, the over deck, which was there for parcels / good and Royal Mail is effectively unused.  The main station concourse is too small and its connections to the Underground are poor.

I cannot help feeling that Old Oak Common will be a much busier station with regard to HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) passengers than Euston, Old Oak will have connections to the Elizebeth Line meaning easier access to the West End, The City, Dockland Heathrow etc also Heathrow Express and GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) services to Wales and the West will be stopping at Old Oak Common.  There is talk of stations on the West Lonon Line near Mitre Bridge this would give links to Clapham Jcn and even Gatwick also Watford / Rugby local services.

Euston HS2 station being cynical is about making revenue out of the redevelopment of the area in much the same way as St Pancras HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel)

[TaplowGreen]

Crewe HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))  "super hub" in jeopardy?

https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/news/chester-cheshire-news/hs2-fears-over-crewe-super-24434009?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

[TonyK]

Crewe HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s))  "super hub" in jeopardy?

https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/news/chester-cheshire-news/hs2-fears-over-crewe-super-24434009?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Part of the general cheese paring, I fear. HS2 could yet end up somewhere closer to Bristol MetroBust than a world class state of the art high speed national railway, connecting communities across the realm.

[Marlburian]

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) rail project should be scrapped, voters tell Conservative leadership candidates

[Electric train]

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) rail project should be scrapped, voters tell Conservative leadership candidates

I wonder what the tory red wall constituencies think, after all HS2 will give most of those better connections to the South

[ellendune]

HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) rail project should be scrapped, voters tell Conservative leadership candidates

I wonder what the tory red wall constituencies think, after all HS2 will give most of those better connections to the South

Its probably too late to scrap London to Birmingham, so they build that and it has not benefit at all to the North!  What will the red wall then think?

[onthecushions]

The Birmingham stretch of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) makes some sense in that it gives extra capacity on the South end of the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line), together with LGV^▸ (Large Goods Vehicle) speeds to B'ham. For intermediate stations the benefit is indirect, though not really proportional to the cost. The prestige project HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) services are likely to be at premium fares, not of immediate interest to the masses.

What the "red wall" voters etc really wanted was better local services (i.e using that dirty word, electrification) on their local lines; in the Midlands, Leamington and Stratford round to Worcester and Telford, also along the already 125mph line to the East Midlands and again to Leicester including NUCKLE. Yorkies would like to see not just TP but also the two routes Sheffield - Leeds, the Calder Valley route, Harrogate etc etc. Even we in the West would like our local wirings completed.

I'm still a cautious supporter of HS2 to B'ham and perhaps relieving the curving Trent Valley route, with the good alignment to Crewe improved not replaced. For the rest, the presumption should be on improving existing alignments with bypasses and tunnels (as on HS2!).

The previous accepted figures were of 50% of the existing routes being suitable for high speed, 25% being upgradable and 25% needing a by-pass.The objection to this seemed to be that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) couldn't work on existing lines economically (or operate them afterwards!).

I think that in practice the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) will win the race to Scotland as it has done before.

OTC

[IndustryInsider]

The prestige project HS^▸ (High Speed (short for HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) High Speed Services)) services are likely to be at premium fares, not of immediate interest to the masses.

I’d be interested to hear how you’ve come to that conclusion and the reasoning behind it?

[onthecushions]

Because every other premium product on the railway since market pricing was adopted has attracted "what the market can bear" fares and also govt will want either a return or more likely a minimised loss, on its "investment".

I'm always game for a SNR cheap off peak, split, or advance, though!

OTC

[IndustryInsider]

Interesting. 

I have the opposite opinion in that the business market is now very repressed and unlikely to recover to any great degree, and leisure travellers will want competitive pricing or they'll go by air or slower train. 

Given the amount of seats to fill on the trains, either over 500 or over 1000 per train, depending on whether in 200m or 400m length, I can see some very reasonably priced fares.

[Electric train]

The positives of HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) apart from building rail infrastructure that will be around in 200 and more years.

It is employing a lot of people not only those involve in the actual construction but the supply chain many of those are British and the trains are likely to built here.
It is training a lot of Apprentices and Graduate Engineers.

We in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), or at least our politicians are very short sighted they cannot think any further than the next election.  With the current melee to be the next PM tax cuts are the weapon of choice for most of the combatants which some will offer HS2 as a way to fund the cut in tax

[onthecushions]

I would of course defer to the above posters whether for knowledge, experience or sound judgement.

In support of the "reasonable fares" theory is the volume hungry nature of the railway; it costs little more to run a train with 1000 seats than one with 100 seats yet the revenue is tenfold. If I were a commercial manager with HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) I would be tempted to run some "£10 singles" to London. Against that is the question of whether there really is that much demand to reasonably fill HS2 services AND the spare seats generated on the classic remaining semi-fast trains. I hope they've done their market research well.

In terms of investment, the question must be whether there is a return on a scheme. I remember being taken round Tinsley Yard, complete with its cabin and wagon arresters, all really redundant before it was opened. We can name many more and I remember a Signalman telling me how his grade feared for their job when their box was painted! The marginal improvements of the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) have always paid whereas the "big bang" schemes of the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) have often left a sour taste. Too often big schemes are driven by headline seeking politicians and work seeking contractors' and consultants' lobbies.

I sincerely hope HS2 is a success but also that the existing Cinderella lines receive proper attention.

OTC

[Marlburian]

With all the leadership (and PM) contenders getting in a froth about cutting taxes, little has yet been said about how inevitable increases in spending will be funded: public sector pay; defence, including replacing the materiel the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) has supplied to Ukraine; and ever-increasing costs of looking after an ageing and ailing population.

[eightonedee]

Getting back to the figures actually quoted behind that Telegraph click-bait headline quoted by Marlburian, as is so often the case with on-line press stories (to be fair from all newspapers of all persuasions) when you read the piece it does not support the headline "HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) rail project should be scrapped, voters tell Conservative leadership candidates".

It tells us "

Only 17 per cent of those who backed the Conservatives at the last election think the highly controversial scheme should go ahead, compared with 52 per cent who now oppose it.

.

It doesn't say how many of the others polled opposed it, or (perhaps more importantly for those considering running) how important this issue is compared to reducing tax rates, cutting illegal immigration, the colour of the cover of your next passport or the honesty and integrity of the next leader.

So - how many were polled, and of these, how many supported the Conservatives at the last election?

A survey of 1,500 people by Redfield and Wilton - 518 of whom voted Tory in 2019

There's nothing to say how the remaining 982 others responded to the question. So it just confirms that of 1500 polled, 269 were voters who voted Conservative last time around and who "opposed it" or said "it should not go ahead" (two different questions - which was it?).

As mentioned above, the so-called red wall voters probably feel let down by the empty slogan that has been "levelling up", so there's more than one message a leadership challenger might be thinking about giving.