Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[anthony215]

With them opening a depot in Cardiff does this mean that there will be a lot of service starting from Cardiff in the morning, this will annoy a lot of commuters traveling to London.

[eightf48544]

As well as the extra cabs and buffets a 2 * 5 car  bimode unit is also carting around 12 extra tons of dead metal when under the wires. Which must add to the running costs.  3 diesel engines per unit are also going to cost an awful lot more to maintain than a straight electric unit.

Plus they are bound to reduce the number of miles between failures.  The newer electric units are now getting on towards 50K miles between failures. In contrast a 142 struggles to reach 5000.

As they going to have auto coulings a  3 MW 160Kph (upgradeable to 200 if the lines are improved) diesel loco with the same couplings and compatible software would almost certainly be cheaper to buy, run and maintain.

[IndustryInsider]

And let's face it, there's bound to be some sort of bust-up with the unions over the introduction of these trains somewhere down the line

Too right.  I can see Crow/Norman looking at where they can throw a spanner in the works already.

[willc]

As well as the extra cabs and buffets a 2 * 5 car  bimode unit is also carting around 12 extra tons of dead metal when under the wires. Which must add to the running costs.  3 diesel engines per unit are also going to cost an awful lot more to maintain than a straight electric unit.

Plus they are bound to reduce the number of miles between failures.  The newer electric units are now getting on towards 50K miles between failures. In contrast a 142 struggles to reach 5000.

As they going to have auto coulings a  3 MW 160Kph (upgradeable to 200 if the lines are improved) diesel loco with the same couplings and compatible software would almost certainly be cheaper to buy, run and maintain.

You aren't seriously suggesting a jerry-built railbus is in any way a fair indicator of the reliability of modern diesel units are you?

[Electric train]

Can not see what the fetish is for buffet cars, complete waste of space most routes with new rolling stock have trolley service which seems to work fine.

For electric traction at 25kV the 4 tonne weight per engine will not add much to the overall power consumption it could argued that the extra mass will improve rail adhesion hence making better use of the tractive effort thereby improving acceleration also it could aid braking force

[woody]

Thanks Willc.  I'll have to buy Rail.  Glad to see Hitachi is trying hard to get this right.  There do seem to be a lot of 5 car trains proposed thought.  I assume that they will be used alot in pairs (with the predictable extra cost of providing catering twice and the revenue protection issues of non-connecting carriages)

Having experienced new trains on other routes, I dont assume that they will be "used a lot in pairs" I cynicly assume that they will run mainly as single units as with voyagers.
And why on earth would they "provide catering twice", not at all more likely, maybe a trolley if you are lucky.

By cramming in lots of high density bus seats, minimising luggage space, removing catering, and reducing the number of toilets, it should be possible to provide "similar" seat numbers to an unimproved HST^▸ (High Speed Train). "Similar" in this context is railway jargon for "not that much worse"

43009 "First Transforming travel",but not necessary for the better though for all I am afraid.Travelled back to Plymouth on Friday on the 1406 "cattle wagon" Paddington to Penzance HST and being sat with my son in coach B I soon gave up the idea of macheteing my way to the buffet through the vestibule areas which were jammed with passengers and large luggage all the way to the buffet for the entire journey to Plymouth(are cases getting bigger?).Add to that there was no aircon in coach B on what was a warm day all left a bad taste in the mouth despite an on time arrival in Plymouth.
It seems to me that Longer distance journeys to and from say Paddington to Devon and Cornwall were compromised to accommodate the overwhelming need to provide extra seats for FGWs^▸ (First Great Western) commuter.I hope IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) addresses this compromise.
 

[broadgage]

AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) the internal layout has yet to be decided, I would however be very suprised indeed if it is an improvement over a proper HST^▸ (High Speed Train), and it might well be even worse than an "improved" high density bus style one.
The trend is generaly towards shorter trains with high density bus seats, minimal lugage space and no catering, this is known as progress.
I cant imagine that a new 5 car multiple unit will be an improvement over an 8 car HST.

Certainly no chance of a proper restaurant, and I doubt that there even be a hot buffet.
Restaurant services on trains to/from Wales were withdrawn several improvements ago. At the time I said that this was in preperation for downgrading Welsh services to DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit). DMUs dont normally have restaurants.

[JayMac]

Restaurants on trains don't show a profit, nice though that they are. So whilst disappointing, I wouldn't expect the new fleet, either the 8 car electric or 5 car bi-mode to have restaurant provision.

I would hope for hot food provision of some sort though available in both classes. But I won't be surprised if their isn't.

Who knows, we might even see a renaissance in restaurant provision on services to the far west where the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) will continue to run for many years. Lots of TFKs that'll no longer be in use offering Travelling Chef between South Wales and Paddington. I suspect though that we are seeing the swansong of restaurants on the franchised UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rail network.

HSTs available for open access could be another possibility..... SWAP Railway* anyone?


*South Wales and Paddington 

[willc]

Broadgage, Hitachi say they can provide pretty much any internal layout (the class 395 presumably is the likely starting point for a high-density layout) and any catering set-up required by the operators but they envisage a maximum of 88 seats in a fully-seated trailer or motor standard coach - a handful more than a current high-density FGW^▸ (First Great Western) HST^▸ (High Speed Train) coach, in a longer vehicle.

And I think you need to forget your fetish for 'proper' restaurant cars being some kind of defining factor in what constitutes an express train. As of next month, the Plymouth Pullmans will be the last of their kind left in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom). The world has moved on.

Open access - i don't think so. You would fall foul of the "primarily abstractive" issue trying to operate to pretty much anywhere on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) - there is no equivalent to the Yorkshire and North East towns ignored by East Coast that are served by HT^▸ (Hull Trains) and GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line).

[bobm]

I suspect though that we are seeing the swansong of restaurants on the franchised UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rail network.

While not disagreeing with you in the longterm, I was speaking to a member of the catering crew on one of the Pullman Services this week and he confirmed that the existing four services will remain in the May timetable, will have new menus and perhaps most importantly will be promoted.

[IndustryInsider]

An interesting 'Railnews' article on electrification, touching on the history of railway electrification in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), running though the years to the current proposals.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/content/documents/rn170_2011_year_of_sparks_effect.pdf

[Tim]

As well as the extra cabs and buffets a 2 * 5 car  bimode unit is also carting around 12 extra tons of dead metal when under the wires. Which must add to the running costs.  3 diesel engines per unit are also going to cost an awful lot more to maintain than a straight electric unit.

Plus they are bound to reduce the number of miles between failures.  The newer electric units are now getting on towards 50K miles between failures. In contrast a 142 struggles to reach 5000.

As they going to have auto coulings a  3 MW 160Kph (upgradeable to 200 if the lines are improved) diesel loco with the same couplings and compatible software would almost certainly be cheaper to buy, run and maintain.

I only partly agree with this.  You need to remember that 12t x 3 (or x5 on teh 8 car train) is a lot less than the 60t that a powercar on teh original bui-mode proposal would have been.  You also should bear in mind that even the all electric version will have one 12t engine for emergency use. 

As for reliability.  The underfloor engines are likely to be derivatives of extablished truck engines, so likley to be fairly reliable and cheap and compiant with the emissions standards

[Electric train]

An interesting 'Railnews' article on electrification, touching on the history of railway electrification in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), running though the years to the current proposals.
http://www.railnews.co.uk/content/documents/rn170_2011_year_of_sparks_effect.pdf

The map of the UK shown in the article, I can remember when the BRB^‡(resolve) DM&EE Electrification HQ^▸ (Headquarters) was at Paddington in Tournament Hse in the 1990's had a very similar map colour coded to show existing (as was at the time) ac (red I think) and dc (blue I think) electrification also it showed the lines dotted for high priority and a paler shade for lesser priority.  The Western main lines was regarded as high priority to Swansea, even Plymouth vis both B & H and Bristol.   There was even a major feeding diagram which showed the location of all the Grid connections and all the track sectioning cabin locations.

[Rhydgaled]

Would 9 5-car Voyagers (I think that's what runs entirely under the wires from Birmingham to Scotland) made into bi-modes cover the Cotswold line services? Also, would splitting the PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) - BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) - South-West services at Bristol (electric to Bristol, change onto a 125 at Bristol) and introducing extra PAD - South-West direct via Westbury services to compensate be acceptable, or is it a bad idea like making Cotswold line passengers change at Oxford?

[ChrisB]

Bad idea anywhere.

Second - where do you maintain these Voyagers?

Thirdly - IF the voyagers were to be used as you suggest, what would XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) use in replacement? And where do you suggedt those are maintained?

Rather than pull suggestions out of thin air, cam you please make suggestions that make sense please? Because you've only make nonsensicsl ines so far.