Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[inspector_blakey]

From that article:

It^s hoped the new trains will enable four trains an hour between Paddington and Bristol, with two running via Bath.

I would bleedin' well think so, seeing as that's the current service level.

[Timmer]

Meridians fitted with additional pantograph cars could then be cascaded as bi-mode trains to the Plymouth and Penzance services run on electric power as far as Newbury.

Pretty pointless really as Padd-Newbury is what less than a quarter of the length of the journey from Padd-Penzance? It would also mean every Southwest service having to call at Newbury for the transfer of traction from electric to diesel to take place.

[JayMac]

Would the bi-mode trains really have to stop at the end of the wires? Surely there is sufficient technology to allow a seamless switchover.

If not then it would be sensible to switch at Reading rather than add a stop to every service at Newbury.

[woody]

Coming so soon after the decision to axe air links from Plymouth to Gatwick this proposal to eventually replace HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) to the South West with Meridians wont be favourably recieved by the regions Political and Business leaders but given the "Value for money" remit now dominating the Rail agenda I am not surprised.
 Personally I avoid Voyagers like the plague and will only tolerate them for short journeys.Meridians may be better but they are still not equal to a HST from the passengers point of view.In short the best that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) or whoever will be able to offer their customers to the South West tomorrow is what XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) offer their customers today and we know that many people already choose to travel via London to avoid the "Voyager" experience.There seems to be a premier league of Rail routes developing in investment terms and the South West is clearly not in that league.

[Worcester_Passenger]

Personally I avoid Voyagers like the plague and will only tolerate them for short journeys.Meridians may be better but they are still not equal to a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) from the passengers point of view.

I agree with you about Voyagers. But disagree totally about Meridians vs HSTs : the East Midlands Meridians are vastly superior to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s HSTs. But I'm travelling in steerage.

[Zoe]

Not everyone wants to sit on top of an engine for 5 hours but then even if we'd got the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) down here we'd still have to put up with that as they are basically going to be E/DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) with pantographs and underfloor engines.

[JayMac]

The initial proposal from Agility was a diesel engine in a power car not underfloor, generating electricity and feeding that to traction motors under the carriages. This should be much quieter than underfloor diesel engines.

Having said that, Phillip Hammond, in his statement to parliament on 25th November 2010 mentioned, "...a mixed fleet: some all-electric trains, and some electric trains which are also equipped with underfloor diesel engines." He was referencing the Andrew Foster's review of the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.), published on 6th July 2010. The annex to that report does conclude that travel times may increase where the majority of the journey is away from the wires. That may explain why Phillip Hammond now prefers a distributed power diesel option.

Guess it depends how far the knitting stretches......

[Zoe]

http://www.railpro.co.uk/news/?idArticles=694

It seems loco haulage of EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) off the wires has been ruled out and it will indeed be underfloor engines.

[qwerty]

Coming so soon after the decision to axe air links from Plymouth to Gatwick this proposal to eventually replace HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) to the South West with Meridians wont be favourably recieved by the regions Political and Business leaders but given the "Value for money" remit now dominating the Rail agenda I am not surprised.
 Personally I avoid Voyagers like the plague and will only tolerate them for short journeys.Meridians may be better but they are still not equal to a HST from the passengers point of view.In short the best that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) or whoever will be able to offer their customers to the South West tomorrow is what XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) offer their customers today and we know that many people already choose to travel via London to avoid the "Voyager" experience.There seems to be a premier league of Rail routes developing in investment terms and the South West is clearly not in that league.

Personally, as someone who may have to work said trains. Meridians would provide a step change for the better. HST's just aren't a sensible choice for the long term.

[Tim]

Meridians would provide a step change for the better. HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s just aren't a sensible choice for the long term.

They would be lengthened as well presumably because a pantograph vehicle would be added as well which is good for capacity,  but I can't help thinking that underfloor engines would be a step backwards in terms of comfort.  Mind you acceleration over the Devon banks would be much better than an HST.

They would presumably only be relased idf the MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about) was electrified

[Zoe]

They would be lengthened as well presumably because a pantograph vehicle would be added as well which is good for capacity,  but I can't help thinking that underfloor engines would be a step backwards in terms of comfort.  Mind you acceleration over the Devon banks would be much better than an HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

What else is there though?  The only trains available off the shelf to run off the wires are underfloor engine DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit).

[Richard Fairhurst]

I agree with you about Voyagers. But disagree totally about Meridians vs HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) : the East Midlands Meridians are vastly superior to FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s HSTs. But I'm travelling in steerage.

+1. Meridians are superb trains (and that's from someone who can't abide Voyagers), in first as well as standard. (EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) is quite good at offering cut-price advance FC^‡(resolve) tickets. )

[Tim]

If not then it would be sensible to switch at Reading rather than add a stop to every service at Newbury.

Regardless of technology for switching power source on the move.  Surely it is better to do it at a station for when something goes wrong like the engine not starting or the pantograph not raising and the train has to be CAPED,

[Electric train]

If not then it would be sensible to switch at Reading rather than add a stop to every service at Newbury.

Regardless of technology for switching power source on the move.  Surely it is better to do it at a station for when something goes wrong like the engine not starting or the pantograph not raising and the train has to be CAPED,

Eurostar's managed to raise their third rail shoe and raise their pan and vice versa quite successfully. 

Who is to say the vision for Cornish / Devon trains in the future is via the B & H this Governments view may be electric between London and Bristol and diesel Bristol west with the B & H a DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) semi fast rural service.  With this current Government you can not rule anything out or in, they are politically dogmatic verging on maverick

[Deltic]

While I abhor the practice of running diesel trains under the wires for 400 miles from London to Edinburgh, before continuing on non-electrified lines to Aberdeen or Inverness, I don't think it makes sense to have a mode change on the London - Plymouth / Penzance route until electrification reaches at least Exeter.  The additional complexity and operational risks from the change-over would not be worth it.  Nor would the time penalty and potential overcrowding issues of going via Bristol.

If we could get the wires extended from Bristol to Taunton, then the whole Cardiff to Taunton and Bristol Parkway to Weston-s-M service could be turned over to EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit).  Peak hour / Saturday extensions to W-s-M or Taunton could also continue without a change of mode or running diesels under the wires.  Once an electrification programme gets started, these "fill-in" schemes become more viable and skilled teams can be kept working efficiently.