Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Btline]

How does the Manchester - Liverpool electrfication allow FTPE^» (First TransPennine Express - website) Scotland services to go electric? What about the Manchester to Preston via Bolton line...

Indeed, in Bedwyn locals will not be happy at the moment, as their direct trains to London will probably end for a period of 20ish years.

[grandsire]

Manchester-Liverpool line interconnects with WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) at Newton-le-Willows/Earlestown

[Btline]

Manchester-Liverpool line interconnects with WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) at Newton-le-Willows/Earlestown

So they're diverting the route? I wonder what the time penalty will be, not to mention the loss of journey opportunities for Bolton and other places.

[willc]

Any time penalty would be pretty limited, if not non-existent, as trains would be likely only to call at Wigan between Manchester and Preston, so lots of 100mph running on the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) leg, and the Chat Moss route is pretty straight and fast too. The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) document makes clear that the Manchester-Bolton-Preston line is among those under consideration for an early go-ahead along with MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about), and Liverpool-Preston, which I take to be the line via Prescot and St Helens.

I'm afraid logic has never had a lot to do with the Treasury's decision-making. If it did, then many more miles of the network would have been wired years ago. After all, what we're talking about here is exactly the kind of thing BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) proposed in the 1980s.

[onthecushions]

I'm surprised that "on the cushions" thinks the Liverpool-Manchester scheme is odd - it seems to me to be a brilliant solution to the lack of diversionary routes for the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) - offering alternatives for WCML Pendolinos to get to Manchester, Liverpool and Preston. Also of course allows the TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) Manchester-Glasgows to go electric. I do agree with "on the cushions" however that the scheme does give a possible jumping off point for an eventual electrification through to Leeds.

It's only odd from the point of understanding the mindset that tagged it alongside GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line). I'm with you in calling it brilliant. Perhaps it was thrown in to soak up the remaining 319's and to free up Diesel Desiros. In this case, the pair of schemes boil down to a rolling stock cascade.

The mirror image is of course Leeds - York (actually Neville Hill - Colton Jn/ Hambleton Jn). Neither route needs new feeder stations, with the three year+ wait for NG^▸ (Natural Gas) to connect up, both are short and could be done using marginal time with the piling/wiring trains, like Crewe - Kidsgrove.

The problem with just going for high return big schemes is that you get (in England and Wales) four very long, fast electrified sidings, connected only at the London hub.

Adonis is probably impatient to make his mark with Brown's Nemesis drawing near. He tried recently (and unsuccessfully) to rush Gospel Oak - Barking wiring approval. Good luck to him; he can have his statue next to Brunel's.

OTC

[willc]

Certainly has a lot to do with freeing up 185s from running to Scotland, which always seemed bonkers in the first place.

But it has limited value in terms of Manchester-Liverpool services, as Chat Moss is effectively only served by a local stopping service at present, ever since Transpennine services were diverted on to the former Cheshire Lines Committee route through Warrington, so any local electric service will initially be little more than a shuttle, or, if it can squeeze through Oxford Road-Piccadilly along with everything else, a Liverpool-somewhere just across Manchester.

And doing Leeds to places out in the countryside on the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) on its own makes sense only if you want to run ever more Leeds-London trains, as GNER^▸ (Great North Eastern Railways) proposed - but with a fall in traffic taking its toll on NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast), you've to wonder if the numbers would still stack up for that.

Even Crewe-Kidsgrove, a very handy diversionary route, has allowed a new regular service, with the LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) Desiros running up the Trent Valley to Stoke, then across to Crewe. Can't really see any thing similar you could develop the other side of the Pennines.

Leeds-York wires make far more sense if they are part of an XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) or Transpennine scheme, because almost every service running on that route goes on beyond those two points.

[northwesterntrains]

I think the media's publication of this has been very misleading.  They've been saying they'll be new trains for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Paddington Mainline services, Manchester to Liverpool services and Manchester to Scotland services, which in fact the new electric trains are going to Thameslink services and London Midland's Euston services, with the old electric trains going to the newly electrified routes.

The 319s that are going to run Manchester Airport to Liverpool are the same age as the 156s that currently run the service and I think the 319s are smaller than doubled up 156s.  Although, 319s should be an improvement on the mainly 142s running Manchester Victoria to Liverpool and Warrington Bank Quay to Liverpool.

The 350/1s and 185s are about the same age and bascially electric and diesel versions of the same train.  (I hope they aren't planning to send 350/2s with 3+2 seating to run Manchester Airport to Edinburgh and neither do I think London Midland should be using 350/2s on Liverpool to Birmingham services.)

In the near future TransPennine Express are expected to run an extra Manchester to Selby train very hour (extending to Hull at peak times), so will need the 185s released for that.  So I don't know if they'll have enough stock to reinstate the regular Manchester Airport to Windermere via Bolton service they cut back to have enough 185s to run Scotland services.

The main issue with the current document is a lack of electric diversionary routes.  Manchester Airport to Liverpool services run by electric trains can't be diverted via Warrington Central during engineering works under the current plans.

[northwesterntrains]

But it has limited value in terms of Manchester-Liverpool services, as Chat Moss is effectively only served by a local stopping service at present, ever since Transpennine services were diverted on to the former Cheshire Lines Committee route through Warrington, so any local electric service will initially be little more than a shuttle, or, if it can squeeze through Oxford Road-Piccadilly along with everything else, a Liverpool-somewhere just across Manchester.

Manchester Airport to Liverpool has run via that line on a semi-fast basis for a few years now.  The time that service takes to get between Manchester and Liverpool is almost identical timing to the amount of time the Liverpool to Norwich and Liverpool to Scarborough via Warrington Central services.

If just Manchester to Liverpool via Warrington Central was electrified there would be less electric trains able to use the overhead wires (just Manchester Oxford Rd to Liverpool stopping services) unless there's further electrification on cross Pennine routes.

[brompton rail]

Leeds - York fill in electrification would be useful for diverting NXEC^▸ (National Express East Coast) electric  when the direct route Doncaster to York is blocked during engineering work, as NXEC have never hired in diesel drags and often prefer buses to fill the gap with the occasional HST^▸ (High Speed Train) to run through via Leeds. Their drivers are not signed by any other route (except Leeds / Hambleton).  However given more rolling stock Aire Valley electrics could be extended to Micklefield and York.

More useful would be Midland MainLine first from Bedford to Sheffield, Doncaster and South Kirkby Junction (on Doncaster / Leeds line), then Leeds - York followed by either XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) Bristol - Derby or (and!) Trans Pennine from Guide Bridge to Leeds would enable use of electric rolling stock and freeing up of diesels for those places unlikely to be electrified this side of the apocalypse!

[eightf48544]

Whilst Liverpool Manchester seems an odd line to elctrify it is actually a very sensible start to further electrification.

With the triangular junctions either side of Newton le Willows are already elctrified to allow North South traffic elctrifying the whole line gives a diversionary route to both Manchester and Liverpool from the South should either of the current usual routes be blocked.

It also gives, as others have said, a chance to run an electric service from both Liverpool and Manchester to Glasgow.

What I am not clear of is this line being electrified in parallel  with or before or after the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line)? If it's before it gives the electrification team a relatively easy line to electrify before tackling the GWML, if it's in parallel then that's very good news as it means Network rial will have a team in the North to do Manchester Preston, Preston Blackpool, Liverpool Wigan etc and then Trans pennine.

If it's after it means the team won't be disbanded as soon the GWML is finished.

It does seem a pity in the GWML line that the Greenford Windsor Marlow and Henley  branches weren't included to eliminate DMUS on all local services East of Reading, but although it would be a relatively small cost especially rolled into one big programme, it would scare the Treasury half to death.

With the Greenford branch, doing from OOC^▸ (Old Oak Common (depot)) via Park Royal as well, would give an opportunity for BAA to turn their Heathrow Express units to even wheel wear under their own power.

[northwesterntrains]

Transport minister Sadiq Khan said when he visited Liverpool last week that work would start immediately on Manchester to Newton-le-Willows and then follow on Newton-le-Willows to Liverpool.  But what transport ministers usually mean by 'immediately' isn't the same as what passengers mean.  Probably there's no rush in getting the whole Manchester to Liverpool line done if Northern have to wait around for the 319s to be replaced on their existing routes and then to be refurbished before getting brought in to service.

[IndustryInsider]

What I am not clear of is this line being electrified in parallel  with or before or after the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line)? If it's before it gives the electrification team a relatively easy line to electrify before tackling the GWML, if it's in parallel then that's very good news as it means Network rial will have a team in the North to do Manchester Preston, Preston Blackpool, Liverpool Wigan etc and then Trans pennine.

The following quotes are from the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) document:

On the GWML: It is currently expected that early works will take place between 2012 and 2014, with the bulk of the construction between 2014 and 2016. Electric services will be introduced progressively: London to Oxford, Newbury and Bristol by the end of 2016, and London to Swansea by the end of 2017.

On the Liverpool-Manchester route: Electric train services will be able to operate within four years.

So from that you can deduce that the northern route will be finished first, and before the major parts of the GWML work starts.

[eightf48544]

So from that you can deduce that the northern route will be finished first, and before the major parts of the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) work starts.

So, will it be the same team doing both?

[willc]

Probably more a good opportunity to get wiring teams trained up to use their 'factory' trains on a quieter line than the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line), for details of these and assorted video clips see http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=4549&NewsAreaID=2&SearchCategoryID=2

Plus the line offers some challenging ground conditions on Chat Moss, which is a huge peat bog, with the embankment sitting on lots of stone and timber tipped in by the Stephensons.

I don't dispute Leeds-York, etc might come in handy for diversions, but if you're going to spend all this money, then it shoud be on something that has value 365 days a year, not just a few weekends along the way. With Transpennine, Northern and XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)), who use the routes east of Leeds all the time, still running on diesel, it would be a waste of money.

And that's why I have my doubts about the point of Manchester-Bolton-Preston without doing other lines in the North West that connect with it, otherwise, apart from the EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) to Scotland, it would still be a diesel railway most of the time.

[northwesterntrains]

A lot of people in the north of England think Manchester-Bolton-Preston and the four North TransPennine routes (Liverpool to Scarborough, Manchester Airport to Newcastle/Middlesbrough and Manchester to Hull) should be high on the list of electrification priorities.  The four North TransPennine routes all run between Manchester and Leeds via Huddersfield, with all but the Hull trains continuing to York, so that would mean 4 express trains an hour in each direction and many local services could be switched to electric with bigger, newer diesel trains available to replace 2 car 158s on express routes that don't get electrified.

Manchester-Bolton-Preston electrification would see 3 trains in a 2 hour period in each direction be able to switch to electric without re-routing (Hazel Grove to Preston and Manchester Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh.)  Then electrifying Preston to Blackpool would increase that to 5 trains in a 2 hour period. 

When TP Express took over the Manchester to Scotland service there was criticism as they had to make Manchester Airport to Windermere a limited service to have enough units, the 185s are smaller than the 220s that Virgin had been using and the 185s are slower.  TP Express also had to reduce times that trains were stopped at stations, like Preston to keep the timings competitive as the 185s can only go at 100mph, which can increase the chance of a late running train being unable to make up time.  So the re-routing of the Scotland service can overcome some of these problems, but does disadvantage the people of Bolton.