Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[RailCornwall]

Regarding Crossrail, will there be an interchange where Thameslink and Crossrail meet?

Yes at Farringdon ... details from londonconnections.blogspot.com

[Btline]

They should meet at St Pancras International - poor choice of route!

I would say that the LU is far better than the Paris Metro. The PM had no announcements or screen on the trains. It was also far dirtier and full of "beggars". (the annoying type) Signage was far worse at all stations, esp at Chatelet les Halles - the biggest interchange in the world.

[RailCornwall]

St P would be virtually impossible how would you get a mainline railway at a reasonable level below ground to connect there? It's a rabbit warren underground as it is. It'd defeat the object of a Central line as well.

[Btline]

St P would be virtually impossible how would you get a mainline railway at a reasonable level below ground to connect there? It's a rabbit warren underground as it is. It'd defeat the object of a Central line as well.

I suppose it is quite "busy" there. But it seems mad to bypass the biggest interchange in London just to keep a straight route.

[devon_metro]

St P would be virtually impossible how would you get a mainline railway at a reasonable level below ground to connect there? It's a rabbit warren underground as it is. It'd defeat the object of a Central line as well.

I suppose it is quite "busy" there. But it seems mad to bypass the biggest interchange in London just to keep a straight route.

But its too far from the City - why anybody would want to go there, I don't know

[RailCornwall]

One of the main aims of Crossrail is a commuter railway not a means of connecting between termini as well. It's convenient that two termini are on the route as it is. Remember also that KC/STP IS on the route of the proposed Crossrail 2 too.

[Btline]

You raise a valid point D/M the Farringdon station is of course the stop for the City commuters.

Crossrail 2? With a Tory major and PM?

[Andy]

They should meet at St Pancras International - poor choice of route!

I would say that the LU is far better than the Paris Metro. The PM had no announcements or screen on the trains. It was also far dirtier and full of "beggars". (the annoying type) Signage was far worse at all stations, esp at Chatelet les Halles - the biggest interchange in the world.

You're right that there are plenty of beggars in the metro but in my opinion beggars are a reflection on a society rather than a metro system. There is a screen on every platform at Chatelet. The signage is as good as in London but inevitably when you are a foreigner, you need a little time to understand the system. The trains are faster, more reliable and the service more intensive than in London. They are also much cheaper. What is more, in Paris, there aren't those annoying pointless whiteboards everywhere which tell you that on such and such a line the service is "good"; "Good" is just about the most unscientific and uninformative word in the English language.

[Chris from Nailsea]

... the Paris Metro ... was also far dirtier and full of "beggars". (the annoying type)

In my (admittedly limited) experience of train travel in Paris, the trains were clean, ran on time (and frequently) - and they were patrolled by some rather scary CRS types with crew-cuts, wearing riot overalls and guns, who caused annoying beggars, accordian players and (probably) any fare-dodgers to disappear instantly, as soon as they entered a carriage ... 

[Electric train]

They should meet at St Pancras International - poor choice of route!

The route of the Crossrail tunnels was planned and safeguarded 20 plus years ago when St Pancras was not the station it is today.  Farringdon was seen as the interchange for cross London travel along with TCR.  To change the Crossrail tunnel routing through London would a nightmare due the amount of tunnels - tubes, swere, water, electricity, telecoms, building foundations and basements.

The more practical solution to trains to serve St Pancras would be a Heathrow via the Poplar's at Acton Main Line and then onto the NNL

[Btline]

PS: I thought the PM was far better than the RER! (in terms of speed, frequency)

As for me not understanding the signage because I'm British - it was the LACK of signs, their positioning (e.g. facing the wrong way fro the last sign so I missed it) and the way a signposted route just stopped.

I think the white boards in the LU are good. (no pun intended) They allow experienced users to quickly calculate their best route avoiding snarled up lines. No such thing in Paris, so instead I had to wait for ages on an RER at Chatelet les Halles wondering whether I should risk another route...

[Andy]

The Paris Metro is better than the RER in terms of frequency, you're quite right. As far as I understand it,  the RER is not seen as an alternative high-speed metro but a suburban network, so the frequency tends to vary in tune with the commuter flows in and out of the city centre. Frequency has been increased in recent years, though - and that has caused a few problems in terms of reliability.
 
Fair enough if you feel there is a lack of signage; it's your perception. I don't share it, that's all. Maybe you need more signage than me or maybe I'm more familiar with the station than you are and therefore insensitive to this problem.

I don't recall saying you didn't understand the signage because you're British. The station is very large, with few architectural points of reference and, as a result, it is easy to get lost or disorientated. People who are new to it, be they French from the provinces or foreigners, take time to find their bearings and are not familiar with the signage (which is overhead, but also on the walls around the edges of the station). In such circumstances, it is natural to want to check more often.


As it's possible to enter the station from several points, the "wrong" way for you was undoubtedly the "right" way for someone walking in another direction. 

[onthecushions]

It looks as though the suburban component has been justified by a good old fashioned "cascade" of the Thameslink 319's, of which there are 85 sets (340 cars - a saving of c0.4Bn Stlg). As these are dual voltage, they can commit trespass on the Southern lines, perhaps allowing a proper Reading - Gatwick service. Waterloo's Junipers were also built to have pantographs and transformers (look at the roof line) so might venture West eventually, so perhaps we can look forward to a single railway at Reading. Who remembers the sign on the mess room on platform 4, "Southern Region Motormen only" or the PA^▸ (Public Address) announcements, "This is a Southern Region train and not for public use!"?

The inclusion of Newbury and Oxford is marvellous for Reading; it will gain 3 high capacity commuter routes allowing a major shift from out of town car commuting.

The Liverpool to Manchester wiring is an odd one (and has annoyed the Yorkshiremen). It could be a political Lancastrian sop or a cute tipping of the balance towards future Trans-Pennine and Cross Country schemes. The dual voltage 319's (if there are enough) could even work on Merseyrail as single sets.

Good news,

OTC

[IndustryInsider]

As for going to Bedwyn, it may maintain the status quo operationally but it will never get past the Treasury, as the numbers just won't stack up without it being part of a full Berks and Hants wiring scheme - unless the quarry operators around Westbury suddenly decide to fall out of love with big GM diesels and cough up for 25kv power instead. In this connection, I have to say I'm still slightly amazed Adonis got Cardiff-Swansea included, when it will have next to no benefit for ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) services.

If you have 319s and Turbos aplenty available, then it's surely cost-effective to run a 30-minute electric frequency to Newbury with a Turbo ready and waiting for a cross-platform connection for everywhere to Westbury (or even going on alternately to Frome/Warminster - I leave it to someone else better qualified to determine if you can create a workable timetable for something like this) - if you dug up a strip of the car park at Newbury and created a west-facing bay. Not ideal, as you would lose the through trains, but exchanging them for a 30-minute interval all day might be a fair swop - and electric acceleration would keep overall journey times to places west of Newbury much the same. You could even build a Parkway station for Devizes on the Andover road.

Well, we're talking about less than 14 miles to extend to Bedwyn. The route has only 11 overbridges (which, to put in context, is one less than on the short stretch from Maidenhead to Twyford), is virtually all plain double track with the exception of a loop at Hungerford, and has no significant structures to bridge save for a couple of river bridges. To retain the quite sensible operational status-quo, I am still a little surprised that if electrifying to Newbury could get past the Treasury, then the remaining section to Bedwyn couldn't.

Assuming that the grand plan also includes full B&H^▸ (Berks and Hants - railway line from Reading to Taunton via Westbury) electrification as a logical next step (even if it is in 15-20 years time), then I would argue that Bedwyn is the logical terminus of this first stage rather than Newbury. West facing bays at Newbury with shuttles to Bedwyn and Westbury/Frome/Warminster are all very well, but even if they are in the pipeline, it's hard to see how that will be sold to those living in the area as anything other than a backwards step and missed opportunity.

ElectricTrain's comments on the decision being made due to the boundary with signalling and power supplies might well be the actual reason behind the decision.

[grandsire]

I'm surprised that "on the cushions" thinks the Liverpool-Manchester scheme is odd - it seems to me to be a brilliant solution to the lack of diversionary routes for the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) - offering alternatives for WCML Pendolinos to get to Manchester, Liverpool and Preston. Also of course allows the TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) Manchester-Glasgows to go electric. I do agree with "on the cushions" however that the scheme does give a possible jumping off point for an eventual electrification through to Leeds.