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Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 1135883 times)
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« Reply #2235 on: December 17, 2016, 08:20:56 »

Shocking positively Shocking .
Don't be so negative.

As the GWML (Great Western Main Line) electrification is alternating current derived from the UK (United Kingdom) National Grid which is generated so the current cycle passes through zero ............ both the above quotes are most useful  Grin

Back to some serious comments, the latest internal news was quoting that 85% of the OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") wiring is complete and the remainder is well on target.

As I went past Kensal Green grid site yesterday I notice that the final connections look like they are being prepped, not sure when Kensal come on line though.
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« Reply #2236 on: December 18, 2016, 10:00:50 »



Back to some serious comments, the latest internal news was quoting that 85% of the OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") wiring is complete and the remainder is well on target.

As I went past Kensal Green grid site yesterday I notice that the final connections look like they are being prepped, not sure when Kensal come on line though.

Presume you're referring to the Crossrail section to Maidenhead. From my observations last week I'd say that it's more like 95% complete - at least in terms of the running lines. I couldn't see the down main but the other lines are pretty much fully wired from Airport Junction to west of Maidenhead. There are some gaps between Langley and Slough around Dolphin Junction and maybe the odd wire length missing which I didn't spot. The AT wire is also to be fitted on both sides of the track and the AT stations at Slough and Maidenhead have yet to be connected up.
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« Reply #2237 on: December 18, 2016, 10:11:24 »

It's probably about 85% if you include all the missing AT wire, though in terms of the contact wire that is indeed about 95% done to just west of Maidenhead.

A fair bit of wire has been strung onwards to Ruscome the last couple of weeks as well, though the wiring team appears to be ahead of the 'small parts' team as quite a bit of it is held up with temporary castors.  Hopefully they'll be no more instances of temporary fixings and equipment causing delays.
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To view my GWML (Great Western Main Line) Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/
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« Reply #2238 on: December 18, 2016, 19:43:01 »

The AT Feed has not been run yet, the extra wire you can see is the earth wire, i believe the plan is to run initially in classic mode.

The 20% ish that has to be done are junction wire runs, there are some odd bit deliberately left not done waiting for the Xmas work to be done.  There are also all the switching drapes and OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") switches and the Track Sectioning Locations to connect up.  Also possibly Bonding to be done.
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« Reply #2239 on: December 21, 2016, 07:59:09 »

Not sure if we've seen these figures before?

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Network Rail Chief Executive Mark Carne told the Public Accounts Committee that "around £47 million" has been spent on works on the Great Western Main Line where electrification has been deferred. He added that the total incremental cost of the deferred works is "around £160m".

Full report in next issue of Rail Magazine
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« Reply #2240 on: December 21, 2016, 09:12:30 »

Not sure if we've seen these figures before?

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Network Rail Chief Executive Mark Carne told the Public Accounts Committee that "around £47 million" has been spent on works on the Great Western Main Line where electrification has been deferred. He added that the total incremental cost of the deferred works is "around £160m".

Full report in next issue of Rail Magazine

Interesting.  £160m seems a relatively small amount of money compared with the overall cost. 
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« Reply #2241 on: December 21, 2016, 11:14:57 »

Total *incremental* cost - I read that as the extra cost involved in delaying the work...
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« Reply #2242 on: December 21, 2016, 11:26:07 »

Total *incremental* cost - I read that as the extra cost involved in delaying the work...

I read it as "for the work that was been deferred £47m has already been spent and it would cost £160m to finish it".

That would give £207m for the extra mileage deferred.   Of course some of the £47m already spent might be on accommodating the longer IEP (Intercity Express Program / Project.) coaches rather than on putting up the wires and installing the associated infrastructure. 
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ChrisB
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« Reply #2243 on: December 21, 2016, 11:48:01 »

Surely that would be termed just "total cost"....incremental must mean something additional to that?
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stuving
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« Reply #2244 on: December 21, 2016, 11:59:50 »

Surely that would be termed just "total cost"....incremental must mean something additional to that?

No - it's the cost of the deferred work as an increment to the rest of the programme. He was answering this question:
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Q34 Chair:   The  issue  really,   Mr  Carne,   is  the  incremental  cost  of  keeping going. 
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TonyK
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« Reply #2245 on: December 21, 2016, 13:03:35 »

Words mean what we want them to mean, as Humpty Dumpty said. Presumably that £47 million includes the work done between Bristol Parkway and Temple Meads to lift bridges and lower tracks, but where wires will not appear?
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« Reply #2246 on: December 21, 2016, 13:46:44 »

Words mean what we want them to mean, as Humpty Dumpty said. Presumably that £47 million includes the work done between Bristol Parkway and Temple Meads to lift bridges and lower tracks, but where wires will not appear?

Yes.  What about work, such as rebuilding the platforms at Bath Spa, that has not happened yet but will need to happen for the IEPs (Intercity Express Program / Project.) to run even on diesel?  Is that in the £47m or the £160m?
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stuving
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« Reply #2247 on: December 21, 2016, 13:58:05 »

Quote
Q30 Karin  Smyth: Can  you  tell  me  how  much  has  been  spent  already  on  the  sections that  have  been deferred,  in preparation  for  electrification?
Philip  Rutnam: On  those  two  sections,  I’m  afraid  I  can’t  say  myself;  Mr  Carne can. 
Mark  Carne: So far,  we’ve  spent  about  £47  million  on the  three  pieces  of  track. 
Q31 Karin  Smyth: If  electrification  doesn’t  go  ahead,  how  much  of  that  money  is wasted?
Mark  Carne: Well,  I  can’t  give  you  an  answer  to  that  now,   because  it  includes  a number  of    different  aspects  of    the  work,  including  improving  the  track  and   the  system,   as  well   as  preparation  works  for  electrification.  So  I’d  be  happy   to  come  back   to  the   Committee  with  a  response  on  that  breakdown; I  don’t have it to  hand.
Later, that was clarified a bit to say that it refers to electrification works alone. Other things not required just by electrification are not deferred. There is probably a grey area - for example axle counters, depending on what other resignalling is being done in the same area.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #2248 on: December 21, 2016, 14:12:58 »

Do you want to quote that section where he admits to really poor planning of the project (again)?
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stuving
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« Reply #2249 on: December 21, 2016, 16:29:27 »

I think there's now too much "managerialism" involved in both DfT» (Department for Transport - about) and NR» (Network Rail - home page). That's my name for the belief that every project can have a single cost and timescale known in advance, and can be managed to meet that unless those involved are incompetent. It underlies the style of management that responds to a project deviating from its plan by threatening to waterboard the project manager and expecting the threats and arm-twisting to be communicated down the hierarchy, expecting the result of getting it back on target.

This always collides with the real world, which isn't like that. Hence the difficulty of explaining who was at fault for the supposedly "inadequate" planning. I'm pretty sure those involved knew how much they didn't know, and that the initial "known costs only" estimates could only go up. But the quickest and most reliable way to better scope those unknown costs is to get started and find out. Sitting at a desk won't tell you. Expensive consultants very likely can't tell you either. And all this detailed planning-for-every-possibility costs money; a lot of money.

The traditional way to manage the inevitable cost overruns is to allocate a big contingency, not to the project but higher up so it averages several projects at different stages. With NR's old "fake private company" funding approach most of their money was borrowed anyway, so a couple of big overruns just added a bit on top of that. Not crazy at all, just incompatible with the several extra layers of project "management" now peering over the shoulders of the guys actually running the work.

Oddly, Philip Rutnam struggled to explain to the PAC how DfT was doing exactly the same thing with its own £330M extra costs on this project (more bimodes etc.).
Quote
Philip  Rutnam:  Which costs?
Kevin  Foster:   The  £330  million   cost  of  delays  we   have  seen  on  this project,  which   is    the  figure  cited  at  the   start  of  the   Report.  Does  that mean  we  will  potentially  see  cuts    in  spending  elsewhere    in   your Department’s budget?
Philip  Rutnam: No,  it   does  not.   We  are  talking   about  different  pots  of  money  here  and  different  budgets.   Mr  Carne  has  been  talking  about  the  £15.7  billion  envelope   within   which  Network  Rail   needs  to  manage   its  enhancement  portfolio  in this  control  period.  The  costs  that  exist  in    the  up  to  £330  million  estimate  included  in    the  Report  for  consequential  impacts  on  the  Department  associated  with  these   delays  sit  elsewhere.  There  are  two  principal  elements  within  that  figure  of  up  to  £330   million.   One  is  associated  with  the  decision  we  have  taken  to  make  all the  trains  we  are  buying  for this  part  of the  country  bi-mode.  The  other  is   the  effect  on  the  revenues  of    Great  Western  Railway,  the  franchisee  associated  with  running  the  trains,   because  electrification  is    happening   a   bit  later  and  the   service  change is happening  a    bit later. 
Q76 Kevin  Foster: Will  they  bear  that  cost  themselves,  or  will   that  cost  be  with  the Department?
Philip  Rutnam: Both  those   costs  sit  with  the  Department,  rather   than  with  Network  Rail.  As  you  would   expect   in  a   large   complex  organisation  like  the  Department,  we  have  budgets  that  include  certain   amounts   of  contingency.  These  costs  are  also  spread  over  a   number  of    years,  so  I  am  not  anticipating  that  we  will  need  to    make  any  reductions  in    other  areas  of  the Department’s  spend associated  with  these  costs crystallising.

Ultimately risk can't be reduced, just moved around from one place - or budget - to another. Of course adding a big number to the initial cost estimate always makes it easier not to overspend...
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