Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[stuving]

Its conductor beam, conductor rail is a lot closer to the ground and is only rated to 750V dc.

Now, be fair. Network Rail may have chosen "conductor beam" to avoid amibiguity, but Furrer+Frey use conductor-rail as their standard term for the product. OK, they are Swiss, but "rail" is also used elsewhere, e.g. in India. And other terms are common too, such as conductor bar, and in France even the rather illogical "rigid catenary" (directly from the French).

[Rhydgaled]

In other (rather belated) electrification news, I noticed the other day that Cardiff council granted listed building consent for the OHLE at Cardiff Central a while ago, sadly without forcing Network Rail to design something subtle like they are doing with Sydney Gardens. Why Network Rail thought apparently the same huge reinforced OHLE needed for 140mph running further east would be suitable for running through Cardiff Central I don't know, but that appears to be what they are planning. Perhaps even more seriously, the listed building consent application suggests that platforms 7 and 8 aren't being wired (platform 6 might not be either). I know the ValleyLines project is meant to be happening at a later date, but it seems to me (as a layman) that it would be eaiser to do all the knitting over pointwork around the station at once. The only thing I can think of is that Network Rail are expecting either cancelation of the valleys wires with the loss of EU^» (European Union - about) funding or freight off the Vale Of Glamorgan to remain diesel worked, thus allowing tram-trains on the valleys and <25kv electrification through platforms 6-8.

The reason for using the same equipment everywhere and limiting different type of structures to only a few special locations is cost and also to keep the range of components to a minimum.

Quite; my argument is that, as a listed building, Cardiff Central should be considered a special location and treated respectfully.

[Tim]

Being part of a separate planning application does not necessarily mean that platforms 6 to 8 will be electrified at a different time.   

With respect I'd also suggest that Cardiff Central is not quite as sensitive a location as Sydney gardens, or at least that the key heritage aspects are the building frontage and the tiling which will not be impacted by the wiring.  There is of course also talk of wholesale redevelopment of Cardiff Central in the future with a Reading-style "transfer deck" installed.

 

[TonyK]

Central should be considered a special location and treated respectfully.

From my experience of my last two visits to there, the gents' toilets should be entered on a special list of their own. I hope matters have improved?

[Timmer]

From my experience of my last two visits to there, the gents' toilets should be entered on a special list of their own. I hope matters have improved?

Cardiff Central station as a whole is an absolute disgrace for a capital city station.

[chrisr_75]

From my experience of my last two visits to there, the gents' toilets should be entered on a special list of their own. I hope matters have improved?

Cardiff Central station as a whole is an absolute disgrace for a capital city station.

Agreed, the place is a dump (much like all of the stations along the SWML^▸ (South Western Mail Line)) and anything done to improve it would be a good thing. Even the listed concourse building looks pretty shabby and worn out externally.

If you want toilets and you have a bit of spare time and can escape through the ticket barriers, it's well worth the 5 minute walk to John Lewis for a rather better experience...

[Bmblbzzz]

The only thing I can think of is that Network Rail are expecting either cancelation of the valleys wires with the loss of EU^» (European Union - about) funding or freight off the Vale Of Glamorgan to remain diesel worked, thus allowing tram-trains on the valleys and <25kv electrification through platforms 6-8.

Surely having multiple voltages just introduces needless complication? I'd have expected that all new electrification would be 25kV. Not that I'm claiming to know!

[anthony215]

Cardiff Central could certainly do with some improovements in addition to whats been spent on it already.

Mind you there are a few stations west of Cardiff  that need a good clean some of the swanline stations look very tacky even Swansea station still looks like it needs work

[broadgage]

The only thing I can think of is that Network Rail are expecting either cancelation of the valleys wires with the loss of EU^» (European Union - about) funding or freight off the Vale Of Glamorgan to remain diesel worked, thus allowing tram-trains on the valleys and <25kv electrification through platforms 6-8.

Surely having multiple voltages just introduces needless complication? I'd have expected that all new electrification would be 25kV. Not that I'm claiming to know!

I would expect that all future main line or long distance electrification will be at 25KV AC. It seems likely that some form of local tram or tram train is being considered as an alternative to proper trains.
Any such might use 750 V DC^▸ (Direct Current) as does the Croydon tram system.

[stuving]

I would expect that all future main line or long distance electrification will be at 25KV AC. It seems likely that some form of local tram or tram train is being considered as an alternative to proper trains.
Any such might use 750 V DC^▸ (Direct Current) as does the Croydon tram system.

Tram-trains elsewhere do run on 25 kV when in "train" mode, and 750 V when on the road. If it doesn't do both modes it's not a tram-train, is it? The alternative is to take the railway track used by trams in its entirety and rework it as a tram line, including through the station. Then it would be 750 V.

[Noggin]

There have been suggestions on WNXX^▸ (Stored Unserviceable, Mainline Locos HQ All Classes) over the last week from well placed sources within GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) that the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train)'s will be running on diesel engines between Cardiff and Swansea indefinitely.

Added together with the apparent decision that the Wales & West franchise will retain it's current footprint (i.e. no truncation of services at the Welsh border), I wonder what deal, if any has been reached regarding Welsh rail devolution? It is apparently the aspiration of the Welsh Assembly to have Cardiff to Swansea, the Valley lines and North Wales electrified, but perhaps Westminster has said words to the effect of 'if you want a devolved railway, you pay for electrification, we'll do a couple of platforms in Cardiff, but we aren't going to gift you the lot as you haven't committed to doing your share'? 

[SandTEngineer]

I wouldn't believe everything you read on the WNXX^▸ (Stored Unserviceable, Mainline Locos HQ All Classes) forum

[Tim]

There have been suggestions on WNXX^▸ (Stored Unserviceable, Mainline Locos HQ All Classes) over the last week from well placed sources within GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) that the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train)'s will be running on diesel engines between Cardiff and Swansea indefinitely.

Added together with the apparent decision that the Wales & West franchise will retain it's current footprint (i.e. no truncation of services at the Welsh border), I wonder what deal, if any has been reached regarding Welsh rail devolution? It is apparently the aspiration of the Welsh Assembly to have Cardiff to Swansea, the Valley lines and North Wales electrified, but perhaps Westminster has said words to the effect of 'if you want a devolved railway, you pay for electrification, we'll do a couple of platforms in Cardiff, but we aren't going to gift you the lot as you haven't committed to doing your share'? 

I'd suggest that we don't know the details of Cardiff-Swansea electrification simple because it hasn't been decided yet as part of a shady deal or not.  You have to remember that the decision to "pause" the electrification was taken when the project was a basket case and something needed to be done.  If it still is a basket case by 2018 then it is entirely sensible to stop the wires at Cardiff.  If the teams are up to standard and working well by then, then it makes sense to plough on.   

[chrisr_75]

There have been suggestions on WNXX^▸ (Stored Unserviceable, Mainline Locos HQ All Classes) over the last week from well placed sources within GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) that the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train)'s will be running on diesel engines between Cardiff and Swansea indefinitely.

Added together with the apparent decision that the Wales & West franchise will retain it's current footprint (i.e. no truncation of services at the Welsh border), I wonder what deal, if any has been reached regarding Welsh rail devolution? It is apparently the aspiration of the Welsh Assembly to have Cardiff to Swansea, the Valley lines and North Wales electrified, but perhaps Westminster has said words to the effect of 'if you want a devolved railway, you pay for electrification, we'll do a couple of platforms in Cardiff, but we aren't going to gift you the lot as you haven't committed to doing your share'? 

The devolution decision was made as part of the Railways Act 2005.

It is too long to quote here, but you may wish to have a read of this document from July 2016, which summarises the current state of play:

http://www.assembly.wales/research%20documents/16-043%20rail%20franchising%20in%20wales/16-043-web-english.pdf

One quote from which regarding the next franchise is:

• the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) will fully fund Great Western electrification, including the section between Cardiff and Bridgend; and
• the DfT will contribute £125m towards the cost of the Cardiff Valley Lines electrification

No mention of happens between Bridgend and Swansea, though I would be very surprised if the wires stopped at Bridgend, but it seems it has been confirmed already that the DfT will be fully funding wires well beyond Cardiff.

[Rhydgaled]

From my experience of my last two visits to there, the gents' toilets should be entered on a special list of their own. I hope matters have improved?

Cardiff Central station as a whole is an absolute disgrace for a capital city station.

I agree regarding the gents toilets, they were rather poor last time I used them* even though they had been recently refurbished at the time (the refurb, although poor, was an improvement, before that they were downright disgraceful). Aside from the awful toilets and one or two less important things, I don't see what you're complaining about; it is one of my favorite stations.

*a fair few months back now I think

With respect I'd also suggest that Cardiff Central is not quite as sensitive a location as Sydney gardens, or at least that the key heritage aspects are the building frontage and the tiling which will not be impacted by the wiring.  There is of course also talk of wholesale redevelopment of Cardiff Central in the future with a Reading-style "transfer deck" installed.

I agree it isn't quite Sydney Gardens, but I disagre that the frontage and western (tiled) subway are the only 'key heritage aspects'. The listing text states something along the lines of 'most complete major city GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) station since grouping', and the platform buildings and canopies are also an important part of that (in my mind at least). God-forbid that transfer deck and the associated mass demolition (I'll say no more about that now, since there's a topic on that somewhere on this forum).

The only thing I can think of is that Network Rail are expecting either cancelation of the valleys wires with the loss of EU^» (European Union - about) funding or freight off the Vale Of Glamorgan to remain diesel worked, thus allowing tram-trains on the valleys and <25kv electrification through platforms 6-8.

Surely having multiple voltages just introduces needless complication? I'd have expected that all new electrification would be 25kV. Not that I'm claiming to know!

New heavy-rail electrification would indeed be 25kv, but the bidders for the new franchise are apparently being permitted to propose convertion of the ValleyLines to light-rail, which might not be 25kv.

Tram-trains elsewhere do run on 25 kV when in "train" mode, and 750 V when on the road. If it doesn't do both modes it's not a tram-train, is it? The alternative is to take the railway track used by trams in its entirety and rework it as a tram line, including through the station. Then it would be 750 V.

Good point, tram-trains could be dual-voltage, but I don't think they have to. Tram-train, as I understand it, means they meet the necessary crashworthyness standards to share tracks with heavy rail rolling stock, as they would if they shared the Vale Of Glamorgan line with freight services.

Added together with the apparent decision that the Wales & West franchise will retain it's current footprint (i.e. no truncation of services at the Welsh border), I wonder what deal, if any has been reached regarding Welsh rail devolution? It is apparently the aspiration of the Welsh Assembly to have Cardiff to Swansea, the Valley lines and North Wales electrified, but perhaps Westminster has said words to the effect of 'if you want a devolved railway, you pay for electrification, we'll do a couple of platforms in Cardiff, but we aren't going to gift you the lot as you haven't committed to doing your share'?

I thought that funding argument had been settled (apart from the EU contribution to the ValleyLines scheme); and sure enough:

One quote from which regarding the next franchise is:

• the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) will fully fund Great Western electrification, including the section between Cardiff and Bridgend; and
• the DfT will contribute £125m towards the cost of the Cardiff Valley Lines electrification

No mention of happens between Bridgend and Swansea, though I would be very surprised if the wires stopped at Bridgend, but it seems it has been confirmed already that the DfT will be fully funding wires well beyond Cardiff.

that was my understanding. The way I read it, "fully fund Great Western electrification" included the run right through to Swansea, assuming Cardiff-Bridgend was in doubt as it could also be counted as part of the ValleyLines scheme (for the Maesteg services). I could be wrong though.

There have been suggestions on WNXX^▸ (Stored Unserviceable, Mainline Locos HQ All Classes) over the last week from well placed sources within GWR that the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train)'s will be running on diesel engines between Cardiff and Swansea indefinitely.

I've just noticed Roger Ford's e-preview for November's informed sources has arrived in my inbox, and one of his comments is rather alarming:

I would risk a modest bet on Swansea not getting electric trains in Control Period 6 (2019-2024.  And given slightly better odds make it a double with Trans-Pennine electrification.

Cue uproar if he's right. (That quote was part of a peice on EU standards pushing up bridges and hence the price of electrification).