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Author Topic: Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion  (Read 1136291 times)
Electric train
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« Reply #1440 on: November 21, 2015, 13:13:01 »

From the Daily Mail - "Now it's the wrong sort of RAILS! Millions spent on new electric trains could have been wasted because they may not have suitable tracks to run on"
Tut, tut, tut. It isn't the wrong sort of rails (unless Network Rail really are incompetent and are installing 3rd rail electrification instead of OHLE), the rails aren't being changed (are they?) The article states February 2018 as the delivery date for the new trains. Assuming that is the entry-into-service date of the first 801 ('electric') unit, since the first bi-modes are already here (for testing purposes), they only have to get the wires to Bristol Temple Meads by then in order to start using the 801s as they arrive. The other problem then is getting the network ready for the bi-modes to enter service as they are delivered. Assuming a bi-mode can keep to time on diesel provided it isn't asked to do more than 100mph then they don't need to wire Temple Meads, just Paddington to Bath and Bristol Parkway by the time the first 800 is ready for service.

Doesn't even need to be that far Didcot or better still Swindon can be suitable places to raise and drop the pans.  I am still not sure is the raising and dropping is going to be done on move, if it is then almost anywhere could be used and it could alter as areas of OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") are commissioned
I was assuming that they would only want to raise/lower the pan in a station, and I think the linespeed is 125mph (or at least 110mph) between Swindon and Box, and in places between Swindon and the junction from Yate. I suppose the 800s won't all go into service at once so for the first few you'd only need one route (the Cotswolds requiring the least wiring, just PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) to Didcot assuming the service stops there). Then you could add Didcot to either Bath or Bristol Parkway (for either Bristol or Wales services) then the other of the two when more sets are introduced.
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There is not technical reason why a pan cannot be raised on the move, it has been done in the UK (United Kingdom) on the original Channel Tunnel link to Waterloo, it has not been practice on the UK national mainlines.

As for the 'desirable requirement' of using both electric and diesel power together, I wonder whether the idea was to use both together to give more power to accelerate faster if the train was delayed?

The trains using 25kV traction the help of a diesel engine will be miniscule, as for use in normal running the generator will have to be taken off load so as to allow for re-gen braking. 

Also with all the carbon reduction required the less the diesels are used the less tax will be paid.
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« Reply #1441 on: November 21, 2015, 14:07:35 »


Also with all the carbon reduction required the less the diesels are used the less tax will be paid.

And the fewer diesel pollutants will be found in the air near the railway.

It seems most likely that the ability to draw from both would be an emergency feature, unless it is to allow the diesels to be fired up before reaching the end of the wires. That would mean the train would be ready to leave on diesel power alone within moments of arrival, the engines having warmed up and having conducted whatever self-testing is required.
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« Reply #1442 on: November 21, 2015, 14:10:03 »

As for the 'desirable requirement' of using both electric and diesel power together, I wonder whether the idea was to use both together to give more power to accelerate faster if the train was delayed?
The trains using 25kV traction the help of a diesel engine will be miniscule, as for use in normal running the generator will have to be taken off load so as to allow for re-gen braking. 

Also with all the carbon reduction required the less the diesels are used the less tax will be paid.
I never said I thought it was a good idea, I was just wondering why the person who wrote the spec put that requirement in.

to allow the diesels to be fired up before reaching the end of the wires. That would mean the train would be ready to leave on diesel power alone within moments of arrival, the engines having warmed up and having conducted whatever self-testing is required.
That would make more sense.
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Don't DOO (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) it, keep the guard (but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea if the driver unlocked the doors on arrival at calling points).
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« Reply #1443 on: November 21, 2015, 15:07:19 »

There is not technical reason why a pan cannot be raised on the move, it has been done in the UK (United Kingdom) on the original Channel Tunnel link to Waterloo, it has not been practice on the UK national mainlines.

Is it not done on the move on the Southern services between Croydon and Milton Keynes? I was on one the other day and, whilst it wasn't 'at speed', I am sure we didn't actually stop.
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« Reply #1444 on: November 21, 2015, 17:02:04 »

I think the WLL service when running to timetable doesn't require a changeover on the move, because to fit in with the Southern and WCML (West Coast Main Line) pathing it has a fairly leisurely progress between the two 'networks'.  However if they ever get a relatively fast run through they can and do changeover on the move, I have experienced it myself on a 377/2 a few years ago.

I read that LO 378s routinely changeover on the move on the WLL now, following a change to operating practices within the last year or so.

The Thameslink infrastructure has a complex are of dual voltage provision between Farringdon and City T/L, and that has also been engineered to allow for changeover without stopping, even though all services do stop anyway.

Paul

 
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« Reply #1445 on: November 21, 2015, 18:33:30 »


The Thameslink infrastructure has a complex are of dual voltage provision between Farringdon and City T/L, and that has also been engineered to allow for changeover without stopping, even though all services do stop anyway.

Paul

The Thameslink Dual Electrified Area does not do an on the move change over, there is no need in fact.  The pans go down at Farringdon on South bound and go up at City Thameslink going North bound this was actually the TOC (Train Operating Company) choice as they believe it gives a degree of safety.  One train's Pan has already hit Blackfriars roof this was due to a defective pan on a 319.

The DC (Direct Current) AC isolation on Thameslink is by a series of contactors in the DC third rail which operated by the track circuits, the one on the WLL is done with 25kV isolation transformers
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« Reply #1446 on: November 21, 2015, 18:44:29 »

Surely when the Class 802s (AT300) are running to the West they will change from OLE (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") to diesel on the move. I doubt the operator will want to stop every service at Newbury.
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« Reply #1447 on: November 21, 2015, 23:11:35 »

From City a.m. - " Public Accounts Committee slams Network Rail for serious planning and budgeting failures, including an "unacceptable" ^1.2bn overspend on Great Western Main Line project"
...
And there are a slew of other articles out there too starting from midnight ...

The headlines of course, tell us nothing we didn't know months ago, long before the commons hearings. Some of the written submissions to the committee look more informative, but on closer examination are rather depressing.

The ORR» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about)'s are huffily trying to justify their existence, and cite an explanation of how they assess Network Rail's efficiency against benchmarks. The trouble is that for the particular costs in question here, i.e. the estimated cost of enhancements in general and electrification in particular, they don't really have any benchmarks. They work mostly by comparison with NR» (Network Rail - home page)'s costs over time, and with other similar businesses. I don't think they ever had that for electrification, nor could have found any even if they had looked abroad for it.

Then there's NR's own submission containing a programme to review and "improve" top-level management and relations with their customers (starting with DfT» (Department for Transport - about)). One part of that looks relevant: "3. Cost planning, Estimating, Risk and Whole Life Costs (Executive Lead: Francis Paonessa)". I'm not sure its content is that much use, though. As to the rest - starting with "1. Clienting and Governing the Enhancements Portfolio" - oh dear. I'd like to add a package 8 to this programme: "Use of English". A short introduction to the importance of writing clear prose that can be understood by readers from a wide range of backgrounds.  Examples will be drawn from the Economist style guide and other sources of good practice. The objective is to prevent the future use of fashionable business (or other) jargon that has no well-defined meaning and serves primarily to prove the writer is up to date.

It's probably pointless for the ORR to try to judge the accuracy of one of these engineering estimates as a number. With inside access (which I think the ORR do not have) one could check that the process is adequate - based on the best data, with inflation added where needed, and well-supported tolerance and risk values accompanying the costs right up the chain. These estimates need to be protected from self-opinionated management alteration, and from being used as bargaining counters in an ego conflict between macho senior managers of a political power struggle with or within government.

I did rather like this, at the end of Mark Carne's introduction:
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If it would be helpful for any committee members, my team would be proud to host you on a visit to see our railway works in action. This could be in your constituency or perhaps a visit to the Great Western Electrification Project.  Regrettably the best time to visit is in the middle of the night as this gives you a first-hand view of how most of our work has to be done. But if that is not possible, we would be very happy to arrange a suitable visit to fit with your schedule.
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« Reply #1448 on: November 21, 2015, 23:26:43 »

The fashion these days is for benchmarking to look at efficiency.  This has the benefit for most regulators that it requires no engineering knowledge whatsoever. Most such regulators are the domain of economists not engineers.  If on the other hand an engineer had been asked to critique NR» (Network Rail - home page) estimates, they might have asked how well the scope of the works was understood and what work had been done to confirm this. 

If you do not know how many bridges will need to be rebuilt and whether they can be closed to road traffic for the duration or indeed whether demolition is to be permitted (leading to expensive track lowering) - If you are trusting in an electrification train but you do not know the conditions it will be piling into - Then how will you ever know the cost. 

And just to put ensure that politicians are not exonerated - if you ask for an estimate of the cost at short notice how do you expect it to be robust.   
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« Reply #1449 on: November 21, 2015, 23:50:32 »

I did rather like this, at the end of Mark Carne's introduction:
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If it would be helpful for any committee members, my team would be proud to host you on a visit to see our railway works in action. This could be in your constituency or perhaps a visit to the Great Western Electrification Project.  Regrettably the best time to visit is in the middle of the night as this gives you a first-hand view of how most of our work has to be done. But if that is not possible, we would be very happy to arrange a suitable visit to fit with your schedule.

Yes, I think that's rather neat, too.  Grin
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« Reply #1450 on: November 22, 2015, 08:48:38 »

I did rather like this, at the end of Mark Carne's introduction:
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If it would be helpful for any committee members, my team would be proud to host you on a visit to see our railway works in action. This could be in your constituency or perhaps a visit to the Great Western Electrification Project.  Regrettably the best time to visit is in the middle of the night as this gives you a first-hand view of how most of our work has to be done. But if that is not possible, we would be very happy to arrange a suitable visit to fit with your schedule.

Yes, I think that's rather neat, too.  Grin

I agree, I wonder if any will take him up on the offer, Christmas Day or Boxing Day would be a good choice if the MP (Member of Parliament)'s don't want to go out at night lots of work going on
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« Reply #1451 on: November 22, 2015, 09:14:00 »

I agree, I wonder if any will take him up on the offer, Christmas Day or Boxing Day would be a good choice if the MP (Member of Parliament)'s don't want to go out at night lots of work going on

Just think of the expenses  Wink Tongue Lips sealed Kiss
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« Reply #1452 on: November 22, 2015, 10:06:45 »

.....and just where does NR» (Network Rail - home page) think its going to get the highly experienced staff it needs to deliver all of this? Roll Eyes Tongue
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« Reply #1453 on: November 22, 2015, 11:34:43 »

Something I learned a long time ago about politics is that politicians talk a lot. It is, of course, a prerequisite of being a politician at any level, if not 90% of the job description. Some talk because they feel they have something to say, others because they feel they have to say something. As I have begun to mature, however, I have realised that the office of chair of the Public Accounts Committee demands someone who is particularly fond of the sound of their own voice, especially since the telly cameras were allowed into their meetings. The previous incumbent (excumbent?), barking Barking MP (Member of Parliament) Margaret Hodge, was an absolute star in this regard. The spectacle of some poor unfortunate executive from any corporate body, public or private, being wire-brushed, debagged and radished live on the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) with highlights on the 6 o'clock news, is an unedifying one, yet strangely compelling. That Mrs Hodge was born too late to be of service to the Spanish Inquisition is a loss to history and to Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain - it would have been much more brutal and fun to watch. The new girl in town, Meg Helier, is shaping up nicely, and is clearly well-taught, in two senses of the phrase.

The PAC's latter-day version of the 15th century interrogations do, however, serve to make sure that the public purse-strings are not loosened lightly, and that those who have access to such funds are held to account for them. Or do they?

On Saturday Kitchen yesterday the special guest, BBC's dancing weather woman Carol Kirkwood (I would), was asked whether we would have snow for Christmas this year. "Ask me on Boxing Day", she answered. The point has been made earlier in this thread that the estimates for the electrification work were always likely to prove less than accurate to say the least, and it comes as no surprise to me to learn that the cost has spiralled. It is a long time since those estimates were drawn up, and the usual creep of inflation in material costs has taken its toll, though that alone could never explain the difference. The real cost will only be estimated with any degree of accuracy long after the first class 801 trundles into Swansea station.

There are a number of possible reasons as to why the cost of the job was so inaccurately estimated by National Rail and DfT» (Department for Transport - about).

  • NR» (Network Rail - home page) is a flawed outfit with weak management, and does not have the expertise to do this sort of work effectively
  • NR isn't weak, but realised at the time of producing estimated costs for the work that the real total would be unacceptable, both financially and politically, and deliberately under-estimated to ensure the project went ahead, safe in the knowledge that it would have to be completed once begun
  • DfT were culpable of one or both of these lapses
  • The actual work has proved much more complex than anticipated because of factors that should have been foreseen
  • The actual work has proved much more complex than anticipated because of factors that could not have been foreseen until work began
  • The actual work has proved much more complex than anticipated because the estimation process was deliberately kept light. This could be because the cost of finding the cost of every nut and bolt would have been horrendous instead of just enormous, money which could have ended up down the drain had the answer been too big to allow the project to continue
  • ORR» (Office of Rail and Road formerly Office of Rail Regulation - about) is culpable for either not intervening when it should, or meddling when it shouldn't. (It seems in any case to be trying the old old method of trying to blame everybody else)
  • The whole idea of the move to an electric GWR (Great Western Railway) has been lacking firm strategic direction at the higher political level for too long
  • Contractors have not performed as they promised
Nothing I have read suggests that the PAC's machinations have gone any distance towards finding out which of these possible causes is at the root of the problem. Because of this, lessons for future electrification projects may not be learned from the mistakes of this one.The issues may have been resolved behind closed doors, in which poor old Mark Carne has been figuratively dragged through the streets on a hurdle purely for public appeasement.

His invitation to the committee to pop along at 3am on Christmas Morning to play choo-choo is a good idea, even if the words used came across as a a bit fawning. When I was flying at Filton, a local protest group sprang up in Henbury, half a mile or so off the end of runway 27. They, or at least their chairman, complained noisily and unnecessarily about the perceived high likelihood of a light aircraft coming down in their streets, destroying many houses and killing hundreds. When the noise became unbearable, we invited the chairman to come along to see for himself the safety procedures involved, both prior to take off and on departure from the runway, to keep him and his members safe. He was shown maps and diagrams, given explanations, then taken for a demonstration ride by the chief flying instructor, during which he got to have a go at driving. Problem solved, although I don't think the PAC could be bought off in the same way. Not while there is a chance to humiliate somebody who is paid more than they are, anyway.

My two penn'orth? Politics has got in the way, although without politics we would be lucky to still have a railway, let alone an electrified one. The job should have been finished more than 30 years ago, but the then government blinked, took fright, and cancelled. NR has not covered itself with glory, but the enormity of the task of upgrading hundreds of miles of 19th century (and still live) railway is difficult to overstate. DfT is the pair of handcuffs that links the NR to the government. It isn't brilliant at the job, but what do you expect from the civil service? ORR is busy getting on with finding new things to regulate , to justify its existence. Its motto could be a Cartesian "Tempero, ergo sum". Whatever happens, the dust will settle, and time will almost certainly tell that the correct result was obtained in the end. This will prove over decades to have been a more cost-effective way of keeping people moving en masse than any alternative that is currently feasible.

And I'm not perfect, before you ask.
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« Reply #1454 on: November 22, 2015, 11:46:19 »

I did rather like this, at the end of Mark Carne's introduction:
Quote
If it would be helpful for any committee members, my team would be proud to host you on a visit to see our railway works in action. This could be in your constituency or perhaps a visit to the Great Western Electrification Project.  Regrettably the best time to visit is in the middle of the night as this gives you a first-hand view of how most of our work has to be done. But if that is not possible, we would be very happy to arrange a suitable visit to fit with your schedule.

Yes, I think that's rather neat, too.  Grin

I agree, I wonder if any will take him up on the offer, Christmas Day or Boxing Day would be a good choice if the MP (Member of Parliament)'s don't want to go out at night lots of work going on

I really hope an MP does take him up on his offer, and on Christmas Day or Boxing Day. Insisting he and his top team come along too. That might make him think twice about making glib suggestions in the future.
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