Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[broadgage]

If it makes the trains go and doesn't come down in a light breeze I care little what it looks like.

Agree, whilst I am in favour of electrification, I do have slight doubts as to the reliability of the OHLE in windy weather, having suffered from the failed East coast scheme.
The more substantial the better IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), within reason. For two or more tracks, the portal frame structures being installed at present should be far more reliable than span wire installations.
A defective pantograph is apt to pull down the wires on all tracks if these are supported from span wires. With a portal frame, the damage should be confined to one track.
A span wire supporting two or more overheads is inherently flexible and may be pushed out of alignment by truly exceptional winds, perhaps causing poor contact and arcing, or de wirement.
Overheads supported by a substantial steel frame should be at less risk.

[grahame]

Further notes from this evening:

TPOD2
01:30 2nd April 2016 to 05:00 11th April 2016

TPOD3
01:30 1st April 2017 to 05:00 18th April 2017

Also anticipate 2 extra weekends needed between TPOD2 and TPOD3 for Pixash bridge

Works to be done:
Bath Goods
Oldfield Park
Pixash Bridge
Keynsham Station
Bath Station

Noting that Keynsham will involve lowering track and platform - I though much of that was rather new?

Bath Station at TPOD3 ...
Widen platforms by 1 to 2 metres
Extend Bristol-bound platform back over river bridge to accommodate full length of new trains

TPOD2 diversions described as "as at TPOD1" though of course not entirely so.
Paddington to Bath Spa via Chippenham hourly
Paddington to Bristol / Weston / Taunton - hourly va Hullavington
Portsmouth Harbour to Swindon - hourly
Westbury to Swindon withdrawn; PMH to SWI^» (Swindon - next trains) to make limited MKM^» (Melksham (Station code) - next trains) stops to compensate
Weymouth to Bath Spa - hourly (don't believe that all the way from Weymouth?)
Extras to make Westbury to Bath Spa every half hour

Buses
Castle Cary to Temple Meads 2 an hour in the peak / offpeak unsure
Bath to Bristol - fast service in peaks, services calling Oldfield Park and Keynsham all day
Keynsham to Bristol extras in the peak

Edit to correct typo

[John R]

Has the second picture been digitally enhanced I wonder ?
It almost looks as though the trees behind the OHLE have been rendered darker than would be natural, in order that the relatively light coloured galvanised steelwork is more conspicuous than in real life.

Or perhaps a similar effect was achieved naturally on a day with intermittent sun and cloud, by waiting for the trees to under cloud and thereby darker, but the steelwork to be in brighter light and therefore more noticeable ?

The viewpoint also looks a little odd, perhaps taken from an aircraft, or drone, or from atop a tower, rather than from near ground level.

I did wonder that also.  Also the metalwork is rather shiny and bright when new, but won't be in a year or two.

Why not just paint them a darkish green?

[paul7575]

Why not just paint them a darkish green?

Camouflage or skyblue vinyl, dependent on viewpoint of the observer?

Paul

[broadgage]

If the picture DOES represent reality from a typical viewing position, then I agree that painting the structures dark green would help.

If however the picture does NOT represent a typical actual view, then dark green might make the structures more conspicuous. If for example a more typical view shows the steelwork against the sky, then the natural silver/grey is probably better.

Are any members of this forum also members of any digital photography forums ? If so, then what about posting the picture an said forum and seeking informed opinions as to whether it is misleading or not.

Or what about someone going and trying to repeat the shot ? if this can be done without trespassing.

[Brusselier]

Why not just paint them a darkish green?

Camouflage or skyblue vinyl, dependent on viewpoint of the observer?

Paul

In Flanders there are wind turbines painted green at the base and light blue at the top. It's still obvious they're there, but it is surprisingly effective at toning down their presence. There is a bit of a height difference between OHLE and the turbines though.

tins of paint would be much cheaper than replacing the lot, and by the time the paint starts to wear off, people will be used to them

[lordgoata]

It would be nice if a design award was in the pipeline (as a matter of fact I think the design of the small part stuff is rather pleasing, less so the gantries!), but far more important for me is that the wires don't come down when it gets windy and if a pantograph gets snagged up it only pulls down the wires above one track rather than all four so trains can keep running.  The recent installations to a similar design in the North-West seem to be achieving that aim, so I'm hopeful the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) scheme will as well.

That's exactly why they have chosen what they have chosen. NR^» (Network Rail - home page) stated the current design will allow them to keep any areas of disruption localised - ie. if the lines come down on the up relief, they would be able to keep the remaining lines open, plus when isolating sections to do work it would be more localised than using a different system, where by they would have to close all 4 lines for large sections. I forget the specifics, but that was the jist of it (ie. function over form, where as RAG^▸ (Radstock Action Group) want form over function). There was more information in the FOI^▸ (Freedom of Information) request link.

[IndustryInsider]

If the picture DOES represent reality from a typical viewing position, then I agree that painting the structures dark green would help.

Unless I'm very much mistaken it's taken from the higher ground looking down on the village of South Stoke looking towards Cholsey.  I don't personally think it's been doctored, just that the timing was such that the wooded area was in the shade with bright sunshine behind.

So it does represent a natural view, but the majority of the nearby land is lower, and it's arguably not within the AONB^▸ (Areas Of Natural Beauty) at all, if it is it's right on the border.  I thought the area of concern was the other side of Goring near Gatehampton Bridge?

The other point is that a lot of vegetation clearance has taken place to allow the structures to be installed, which will inevitably grow back - perhaps not to how it was as that would encroach on the overheads, but it certainly would not look that stark as it does there in a couple of years.

If a few tins of paint is enough to pacify those who are objecting, then that's not a bad solution.  Excuse the pun!

[lordgoata]

If the picture DOES represent reality from a typical viewing position, then I agree that painting the structures dark green would help.

If however the picture does NOT represent a typical actual view, then dark green might make the structures more conspicuous. If for example a more typical view shows the steelwork against the sky, then the natural silver/grey is probably better.

Are any members of this forum also members of any digital photography forums ? If so, then what about posting the picture an said forum and seeking informed opinions as to whether it is misleading or not.

Or what about someone going and trying to repeat the shot ? if this can be done without trespassing.

This is from Hartslock field in August. I have newer ones, but I have processed those and can't find the originals. This one was untouched as far as I recall.

https://goo.gl/photos/r6xSF1ddXxzj921t9

As for the photo you mention, I think its taken with a telephoto lens from the footpath through one of the fields between Icknield Road and Wallingford Road. To me, the trees look dark as they are in shadow from clouds, where as the foreground and background is in sun.

If its not pissing down with rain at the weekend I will see if I can get a couple of photos (not promising anything as I am not sure what I am up to yet!).

[Rhydgaled]

Something like this perhaps
http://www.ribacompetitions.com/ols/shortlisted.html

Those are certainly alot better than these:


https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5148/5638603616_d0aed35752.jpg

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/assets/0/72/4294967297/30064771362/30064773484/30064773906/30064773920/5b8ec24e-c3bf-4b40-bb1a-ce0986902ecf.jpg

Both the above are really quite ugly in my view. But really, just something like the structures in the foreground of this (too big to put the image in the post) is already a big improvement on the above photos which I have included in the post. Basiclly, I'd like most OHLE to be like the OHLE in that last link but with the vertical masts being a smooth cylindrical like the mast of most modern wind turbines (on some OHLE I've seen the mast is more like a section of rail stuck vertically, and I think that isn't as nice). You could possibly improve the appearance further, but diminishing returns probably applies. So, basicly, nothing stretching the whole way across the track, whether that be a solid beam, a lattice like the photos embeded in my post above or a horizontal wire like the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) (the latter isn't good in a practical sense either, because as others have said it causes a dewirement on one line to rip the rest down with it).

[Visoflex]

Apart from the cost involved, the major stumbling block with any new product on Network Rail is one of trials and approvals.  The Series 1 kit has been in development for some years now, and I doubt if there is much appetite for having to go through the whole rigmarole again to satisfy criticism on the grounds that it doesn't look nice.

The Series 1 kit has been designed to remove many points of failure experienced with previous generations of OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") equipment.  Who knows what other failures could be encountered with new ones fresh off the drawing board but unproven in service.

[Tim]

.. I agree.  No point in altering the kit now.  I also agree that safety and reliability come first and dwarf any other consideration.

However, I remain of the view that something well designed is inherently beautiful,  perhaps not in a classic sense, but something like a National Grid pylon can still be admired for its economy in use of materials and that fact that it looks likes the elegant solution to a problem that it is.  After spending some time in Texas and seeing what a mess they have made of their highway bridges, I have come to realise that even a mundane motorway bridge in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom), built to a budget as it is and not "pretty" by any means is still something designed with an eye on appearance.

My concern with the OHE^▸ (Over-Head Electrification) equipment on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) is not that it is obtrusive, it is that it has the appearance of being badly designed.  That is what to my mind makes it objectively ugly.  The uprights for example stick up beyond the cross bar for no real reason and that makes it look like it has been lazily (or perhaps hurriedly) designed.  Steel is wasted for the sake of convenience and that makes it ugly (as well as perhaps more expensive).

I certainly wouldn't argue that OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") is "prettified" painted green, given ornate twirls or clad in Bath stone or whatever.  That would be horrible.  It is industrial equipment and should not apologise for that.  It should look like industrial equipment.  But it would be nice if it looked like well designed industrial equipment and I am afraid it doesn't IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion).

[Red Squirrel]

I find the accusations of doctored images and nimbyism a bit much. The fact is that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are installing pug-ugly kit through an AONB^▸ (Areas Of Natural Beauty), and we and they do no-one any favours if we try to deny what is self-evidently true.

On the other hand, I am sure that the OHLE will look better in a few years when it has weathered and some of the vegetation has grown back.

If NR had been watching the news at any time in the last few years they might have spotted the fact that people in the Chilterns are a bit sensitive to railway developments at the moment - perhaps a bit of 'cuddling' would helped? Or maybe NR were worried that if they opened a dialogue, the Chilterns Conservation Board might have insisted that 20 miles of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) were put in a tunnel...

Apart from the cost involved, the major stumbling block with any new product on Network Rail is one of trials and approvals.  The Series 1 kit has been in development for some years now, and I doubt if there is much appetite for having to go through the whole rigmarole again to satisfy criticism on the grounds that it doesn't look nice.

The Series 1 kit has been designed to remove many points of failure experienced with previous generations of OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") equipment.  Who knows what other failures could be encountered with new ones fresh off the drawing board but unproven in service.

Am I wrong to imagine that there might be well-proven 25kV OHLE installations in other countries that we could learn from?

[Visoflex]

As I understand it, various continental schemes were studied as part of the initial design works.  Indeed the small part steel (the dangly bits) is based on a Swiss design from Furrer and Frey.  Nevertheless I have to agree that they do appear to be the metallic equivalent of Lego - and not in a good way!

[TonyK]

Has the second picture been digitally enhanced I wonder ?
It almost looks as though the trees behind the OHLE have been rendered darker than would be natural, in order that the relatively light coloured galvanised steelwork is more conspicuous than in real life.

I think it's an effect of shadow - I'm guessing the sun is above and slightly behind the trees, making the visible side look dark, whilst the steel work behind is fully lit.

However, I remain of the view that something well designed is inherently beautiful,  perhaps not in a classic sense, but something like a National Grid pylon can still be admired for its economy in use of materials and that fact that it looks likes the elegant solution to a problem that it is. 

Concur. At the time of the design contest for the new generation of NG^▸ (Natural Gas) pylons, due to appear in the West country in the next few years, we were reminded that the original lattice pylon was also the winner of a design competition. To quote Spike Milligan "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Get it out with Optrex".

I find the accusations of doctored images and nimbyism a bit much. The fact is that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are installing pug-ugly kit through an AONB^▸ (Areas Of Natural Beauty), and we and they do no-one any favours if we try to deny what is self-evidently true.

Am I wrong to imagine that there might be well-proven 25kV OHLE installations in other countries that we could learn from?

Fair comment. The situation of any bit of the kit will determine the effect. In a cutting, no problem. On top of a high embankment in open flat country, the impact is greater. That said, I was back oop t'North a short while back, and drove along a semi-rural A6 to a most acceptable dinner in a very nice pub / restaurant*. The line from Preston to Lancaster runs alongside for part of the way, and is electrified. Behind is the backdrop of the Pennines and the Trough of Bowland. Neither was diminished in any way by having the OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE")  in the foreground.

_{(* Details on request, if you are heading between Preston and Garstang)}