Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Electric train]

Hang on ^ what did the APT^▸ (Advanced Passenger Train) have to do with electrification? I remember seeing one somewhere, once; perhaps it was Reading? Or maybe North Pole or somewhere similar near Paddington? Can't remember where, but I do remember it being a large number of points in my I Spy On a Train Journey book! Anyway, I'm sure that even if some APTs were electric, by no means all were (though how many were made? Can't have been many.)

Hang on ^ what did the APT have to do with electrification? I remember seeing one somewhere, once; perhaps it was Reading? Or maybe North Pole or somewhere similar near Paddington? Can't remember where, but I do remember it being a large number of points in my I Spy On a Train Journey book! Anyway, I'm sure that even if some APTs were electric, by no means all were (though how many were made? Can't have been many.)

There were only three APTs build for actual passenger use, plus one experimental prototype. All were powered by 25 KV AC. The start of the development was in the mid-1960s, and the expectation was for success in a short period of time, with a long production run following the first three entering service. Electrification was considered essential for this, and in 1977, a parliamentary select committee on efficiency in nationalised industries proposed a rolling programme of electrification for when it was ready.

Before that, it had become obvious that APT wasn't going to be a short-term development, and the British Rail Board authorised the rapid development of a high speed diesel to enter service by 1972 to fill the gap until APT was ready. In the event, APT didn't go into passenger service proper until 1981, and had few friends in the corridors of power. The HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) had been deployed from late 1975, and were well embedded in railway consciousness. The 1979 election saw a new government in place that eventually cancelled the electrification plans and privatised the railways. The HSTs were so good at the job, that there was nothing broke that needed mending. Until now, as they are heading towards relative retirement, although I am sure there will still be HSTs running somewhere in anther 20 years. Who could resist redeploying a fast train like that?

APT was quietly abandoned by 1986, although much of the technology developed for it found its way into the Pendolino design. Who knows - a few more years of work and more backing, and it may have been a goer today.

That's a s good a history as I have been able to compile. I am also a fan of the HST, but it's time to move on.

In the 1970's there was the APT-E   E standing for experimental it was gas turbine powered http://www.rapidotrains.com/apt1.html

[Bmblbzzz]

I was beginning to wonder if what I remembered as APT^▸ (Advanced Passenger Train) was actually something else, but Electric Train's link looks like what I remember. Allowing for scale!  What I mostly remember about the APT though is that it was meant to tilt but didn't.

[John R]

You will when the driver has to slam on the breaks (sic!). It is very rare to smell the brakes these days.

I would dispute that. I smell it nearly every time I travel on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train). Maybe I just have a keen sense of smell!

You do still smell it, but it is nothing like the first couple of years.

At the risk of further digression, it's interesting that in the era of privatisation, there's possibly a more unpleasant smell that pervades Voyagers, but 12 years on not a lot has been done to address that particular odour.

[ellendune]

You will when the driver has to slam on the breaks (sic!). It is very rare to smell the brakes these days.

I would dispute that. I smell it nearly every time I travel on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train). Maybe I just have a keen sense of smell!

You do still smell it, but it is nothing like the first couple of years.

At the risk of further digression, it's interesting that in the era of privatisation, there's possibly a more unpleasant smell that pervades Voyagers, but 12 years on not a lot has been done to address that particular odour.

I recall a couple of years ago after a heavy brake application it came in quite strongly (perhaps the damper was not working) and one woman became quote concerned and want to pull the alarm.  I managed to persuade her that it was OK and she did not need to. 

[Rhydgaled]

I was beginning to wonder if what I remembered as APT^▸ (Advanced Passenger Train) was actually something else, but Electric Train's link looks like what I remember. Allowing for scale!  What I mostly remember about the APT though is that it was meant to tilt but didn't.

That's the APT-E, the gas turbine one that didn't require electrification and hence you may well have seen it at Reading. I'm not sure whether APT-E could tilt, but APT-P (the electric version, that actually went into service) could tilt. Some of the APT tech went into the IC225 (class 91 and mrk4 coaches) which it is rumored was orrigianlly going to be called APT-U. The IC225 was supposed to allow for tilt to be retro-fitted, but it never was.

[Rob on the hill]

The Nations Railway: The Golden Age of British Rail
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I_d2PwUD-s

This BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) documentary includes the development of the APT^▸ (Advanced Passenger Train) and HST^▸ (High Speed Train) from 34mins. Very interesting programme with lots of nostalgic footage from the British Rail film unit.

[Tim]

At the risk of further digression, it's interesting that in the era of privatisation, there's possibly a more unpleasant smell that pervades Voyagers, but 12 years on not a lot has been done to address that particular odour.

AIUI^▸ (as I understand it), this is down to a the warm exhaust system running too close to a sewage tank and "simmering" the contents combined with an air con intake too near a tank vent. 

I understand that Virgin has made real changes to their voyagers by changing some of the piping of the venting.   Similar changes were made the Pendolinos which had a similar problem with a similar cause.  It has improved the problem although maybe not completely solved it.   

XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) being the dreadful franchise that they are, have chosen the cheaper option of installing air fresheners behind some of the panels in the toilets and upping the frequency of cleaning out tanks and replacing air filters rather than spending money on adopting a known engineering solution. 

Not looking forward to my XC trip this evening. 
 

[IndustryInsider]

XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) being the dreadful franchise that they are,

I do hope that the new Cross Country franchise, the one starting in 2019 (I have little hope of the direct award next year specifying anything but cosmetic improvements) is far more demanding of the operator as if ever there was a franchise that has just stood still over the last few years, then XC is it - despite having so much more growth potential.

[ChrisB]

With no stock available & full trains over 75% of the time, I can see why they've foregone the growth potential.

[IndustryInsider]

Yes indeed - fundamental changes are needed with the franchise specification.   A bit like the famous 'no growth' Northern franchise of 2004 being altered this time to specify the introduction of a brand new fleet of trains and add over 200 trains to the timetable each day.  Frequency of service isn't much of a problem on XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))- better than it's ever been on most of their routes, but train length most certainly is.

[stuving]

I've been ploughing through the transcript of the PAC hearing on the 21st. It is of course very irritating - silly questions not being challenged, and sensible ones not being answered meaningfully. Some bits are more illuminating, and do give us a more official version of what has already been reported. Here's an example, on why the piling factory train doesn't do what it says on its can:

  Q31 David Mowat: It is my observation that Mr Carne^s evidence and Mr Price^s evidence were contradictory. Mr Carne said that the ^2.6 billion, or the range that you now have, was due to three factors ^ estimating errors, scope and regulatory ^ none of which was execution problems. Mr Price said that actually there was ^1 billion of execution error in this, because the correct number was the one that was agreed last year. It seems to me that the two of you have got some sorting out to do on that. Your position is that it was just an estimating thing, whereas Mr Price is saying that actually the correct figure was the one that was given to the Committee last year. Those two pieces of evidence do not stack up together.

  Mark Carne: Perhaps I can try to address that point. Fundamentally, as I said, this particular project ^ let us focus on this project ^ was very immature at the time when the final determination was set, so there was a lot of scope definition that needed to be done, there was a lot of design that needed to be done, and that led to a greater degree of certainty about what the final cost would be. However, there is no doubt that the construction of this project has proved to be much more challenging and difficult than it should have been and that partly goes back to planning. Let me give you a very specific example of what I mean. When you electrify a railway line, you also have to re-signal it; otherwise, the high-voltage electrification interferes with the signals. In normal circumstances one would re-signal the railway line first, before you electrify it. In this case, because of some challenges in the supply chain, the signalling and the construction sequencing, we were not able to do that in all cases. So we decided, okay, we will start the piling of the ^

  David Mowat: Okay ^

  Mark Carne: If I may, because this is about the construction risk, which I absolutely accept is a material factor in this. In this case, on the Great Western line, because the signalling system had been buried in the ballast in British Rail days, in the 1970s, to prevent it being stolen by cable thieves, we did not know exactly where it was, then when we put the piles in we cut the signalling cables.

  Q32 Mr Bacon: You drilled through the signals?

  Mark Carne: We cut through the signals on two occasions. Quite clearly, that was unacceptable, because it would have caused disruption to passengers on the railway line. Therefore, for every single pile that we have to put in, we have to dig a trial hole ^

  Q33 David Mowat: I understand and that is quite rational ^ you found stuff as you were going through that you had not expected, and that was reasonable. All I am saying, and we need not spend time on this, is that that, though, is a little contradictory to what Mr Price said. Mr Price told the Committee that a decent contractor could have done this for the ^1.6 billion. You are telling us now that it is about ^2.3 billion to ^2.6 billion and that is generally due to estimating errors rather than execution errors.

  Mark Carne: I do not fully ^

[stuving]

Here's another extract, this time from the Permanent Secretary, Department for Transport.

  Philip Rutnam: It was planned in from the beginning, and it was planned in concert with Network Rail in terms of the timings of the delivery of the intercity express programme and its link to electrification, because clearly we need to synchronise with an appropriate contingency the delivery of electrification and of new rolling stock.
Under the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) we are buying two fleets of trains for the Great Western route. One is hybrid, so the trains can operate on both diesel and electric power. Those trains start to arrive in 2017. The fleet that is of more concern and relevance to our debate is powered by electric traction only. Those trains start to arrive in February 2018. To be clear, the Department, as the ultimate customer on behalf of taxpayers and passengers, is liable to pay for the trains whether the electrification is ready or not. So we are clearly concerned ^ very concerned ^ not only about the delays to electrification and the cost overruns, but at the prospect that we might have the electric trains designed for the Great Western Main Line, ideal to provide many, many benefits to passengers, and not be able to use them.
As you would expect, we are actively looking at a range of options to mitigate this risk. There is a range of commercial as well as technical dimensions to that, so I would rather not go into too much detail, but I want to reassure the Committee that this is right at the top of the Department^s priority list in terms of making sure not only that the trains are delivered ^ I have confidence about that ^ but that we can use them.

[grahame]

There is a range of commercial as well as technical dimensions to that, so I would rather not go into too much detail, but I want to reassure the Committee that this is right at the top of the Department^s priority list in terms of making sure not only that the trains are delivered ^ I have confidence about that ^ but that we can use them.

It might not be what anyone has in mind, but aren't there high speed diesel trains running on the east and west coast main lines and spending all of their time on electrified lines.  Indeed the second phase if IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) delivery sorts out that issue at least on the east coast ... so it might be what the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) have in mind.  Of course an IEP would be no good to replace the diesel-on-electric to Lymington, but it would make a darned fine Photoshop project!

[Timmer]

One option, though wouldn't be popular with the travelling public, would be long block possessions rather than just working at night to get the wires up.

[paul7575]

Of course an IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) would be no good to replace the diesel-on-electric to Lymington, but it would make a darned fine Photoshop project!

That issue should have gone away in December.  450 all week was planned, but if realtimetrains is to be believed, the ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) from Salisbury depot for the 158s has been reinstated since I checked a few weeks ago.

Paul