Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

Who owns the original copyright?....

[JayMac]

The Great Western Railway's legacy GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) roundel is trademarked for certain uses, with the mark being owned by the Science Museum Group (SCMG Enterprises Limited).

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/tmcase/Results/1/UK00002636701

I have a feeling it may be public domain for other uses, such as when used by heritage railways, other museums (not for souvenirs) and publications. It's unlikely, I think, that SCMG Enterprises Limited are going to be concerned that their trademark is being debased by the subtly altered use in a totally different class of business to which they use the trademark for.

If Furrer+Frey, or other partners in the Great Western Electrification progamme, started selling cufflinks, badges, crockery or mirrors with that GWE roundel on them then they could be breaching SCMG Enterprises Limited's trademark. I don't think that's likely though.

Looking into this did lead me to another recent trademark using the letters 'GWR'. See:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4600.msg159965#msg159965

[broadgage]

Wires down AGAIN on the southern end of the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line), with serious disruption since last evening.
Hopefully lessons have been learnt from the failed East Coast scheme and the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) electrification will be more successful.
However many parts of the GWR route are exposed to high winds, and other parts have steep sided cuttings and embankments that appear vulnerable to landslides displacing masts etc.

[a-driver]

Wires down AGAIN on the southern end of the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line), with serious disruption since last evening.
Hopefully lessons have been learnt from the failed East Coast scheme and the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) electrification will be more successful.
However many parts of the GWR route are exposed to high winds, and other parts have steep sided cuttings and embankments that appear vulnerable to landslides displacing masts etc.

It was alleged that it was a Network Rail test train that bought the wires down as well.

[Electric train]

Broadgauge the type of OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") being used on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) west of Airport Jcn has a different means of registering the wires.  The ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) with its BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) Mk3 head span construction is prone to all line blockage if one road is damaged on the GW^▸ (Great Western) independently mechanically registered equipment is being used, basically it will use portal (ie steel beams across all lines) in 4 track areas and single mast for each line in 2 track areas; also the GWML are going for typical 50 metres between structures whereas the ECML is typically 70 metres.

Will the GWML get affected by a rip down at some stage yes it will do HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s have catastrophic failures stranding passengers for hours on end in the middle of no where  yes they have, mechanical and electrical systems fail we have to accept that its when the human intervention during the failures fails that is inexcusable

[IndustryInsider]

...and single mast for each line in 2 track areas; also the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) are going for typical 50 metres between structures whereas the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) is typically 70 metres.

Also, I believe the plan is to have bi-di signalling installed as part of the Oxford corridor enhancements between Didcot and Banbury, so along with the bi-di signalling already installed westwards from Didcot to Bristol, and the fact that many trains will have back-up emergency diesel power or full bi-mode capability and every indication is that the GWML system (and the ability to continue in some capacity when there has been a failure) will be much more robust than the ECML which does fail spectacularly far too often.

[Electric train]

and every indication is that the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) system (and the ability to continue in some capacity when there has been a failure) will be much more robust than the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) which does fail spectacularly far too often.

The ECML OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") is now 25 years old for the newest parts, between Hitchin and Peterborough its over 30.  BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) did the ECML electrification to a very tight budget, its maintenance suffered in the Railtrack years at the very time it need a half life refit it did not get that much money most being diverted the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) although in 2000 ish it did get a new feeder station at Corries Mill, new SCADA^▸ (System Control And Data Acquisition,) and new protection relays but these were seen a performance enhancements.

Line access on the ECML is very restrictive due to a lot of freight and currently the Scottish Sleepers are diverted down the ECML at weekend while the WCML is have yet more work done to it.

The ECML has an OLE power upgrade project planned for the next 5 years along with ETRMS the power upgrade keeps getting "optimised"

[TonyK]

Also, I believe the plan is to have bi-di signalling installed as part of the Oxford corridor enhancements between Didcot and Banbury, so along with the bi-di signalling already installed westwards from Didcot to Bristol, and the fact that many trains will have back-up emergency diesel power or full bi-mode capability and every indication is that the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) system (and the ability to continue in some capacity when there has been a failure) will be much more robust than the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) which does fail spectacularly far too often.

All the trains will have diesel back-up. The 9-car sets will have 2 (or three possibly) diesel engines, which should be able to provide enough power to limp along with pants down to the next station, subject to no entanglement of cables. The engines will be used daily, taking the sets into and out of the depot.

If push comes to shove, they will probably be used to keep the lights and aircon on until a loco arrives to rescueone and all.

[ellendune]

The ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) has an OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") power upgrade project planned for the next 5 years along with ETRMS the power upgrade keeps getting "optimised"

That sounds like the new type of value engineering in which the bean counters engineer all the value out of the project before they approve it.

[IndustryInsider]

Also, I believe the plan is to have bi-di signalling installed as part of the Oxford corridor enhancements between Didcot and Banbury, so along with the bi-di signalling already installed westwards from Didcot to Bristol, and the fact that many trains will have back-up emergency diesel power or full bi-mode capability and every indication is that the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) system (and the ability to continue in some capacity when there has been a failure) will be much more robust than the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) which does fail spectacularly far too often.

All the trains will have diesel back-up. The 9-car sets will have 2 (or three possibly) diesel engines, which should be able to provide enough power to limp along with pants down to the next station, subject to no entanglement of cables. The engines will be used daily, taking the sets into and out of the depot.

If push comes to shove, they will probably be used to keep the lights and aircon on until a loco arrives to rescueone and all.

Yes, agreed that all the SET^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET))/IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s will, but the reason I said most trains is because I was taking into account the likely use of EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) without any back-up diesel power on the London to Oxford/Newbury route and maybe further afield than that.  Compatible couplers with the SET trains would be potentially very useful on those occasions an EMU is stranded.

[Electric train]

All the trains will have diesel back-up. The 9-car sets will have 2 (or three possibly) diesel engines, which should be able to provide enough power to limp along with pants down to the next station, subject to no entanglement of cables. The engines will be used daily, taking the sets into and out of the depot.

If push comes to shove, they will probably be used to keep the lights and aircon on until a loco arrives to rescueone and all.

Twerking all the way   sorry could not resist I am sure you meant Pan

According to the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) lecture given by Hitachi last summer the gen sets on the electric traction only trains principle use is to maintain hotel services, it can power the traction pack with a limited speed of 30mph max

[Chris from Nailsea]

The 9-car sets will have 2 (or three possibly) diesel engines, which should be able to provide enough power to limp along with pants down to the next station...

Twerking all the way   sorry could not resist I am sure you meant Pan

Erm ... simply so I know how to record this correctly in our 'acronyms and abbreviations' pages, should I refer to 'pantographs', 'pants' or 'pans'? 

[trainbuff]

I believe you should refer to them as pans. That seems to be what the railway people I know refer to them as. Never heard them called 'pants' till your post!

[Rhydgaled]

Also, I believe the plan is to have bi-di signalling installed as part of the Oxford corridor enhancements between Didcot and Banbury, so along with the bi-di signalling already installed westwards from Didcot to Bristol, and the fact that many trains will have back-up emergency diesel power or full bi-mode capability and every indication is that the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) system (and the ability to continue in some capacity when there has been a failure) will be much more robust than the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) which does fail spectacularly far too often.

All the trains will have diesel back-up. The 9-car sets will have 2 (or three possibly) diesel engines, which should be able to provide enough power to limp along with pants down to the next station, subject to no entanglement of cables. The engines will be used daily, taking the sets into and out of the depot.

If push comes to shove, they will probably be used to keep the lights and aircon on until a loco arrives to rescueone and all.

I think it is only one diesel engine on a 9-car 'electric', with 3 or 4 on a 9-car 'bi-mode' (although currently the GW^▸ (Great Western) will not be getting any of those) and 2 diesel engines on a hypothetical 10-car 'electric'. Personally, I think the bolded bit at the end is more likely, since if the wires are down there is likely entanglement or an electric-only unit blocking the line ahead. Thus, the diesel engine in the 'electric' sets becomes just about keeping the lights on and the saloon temperature correct. The flaw with that is that aircon/heating/lighting systems can fail for other reasons beside loss of power. I've read enough complaints about 158s with failed aircon despite the fact everything else still working to know that. Thus, I would suggest that a solution which could also keep passengers comfortable in the event of the aircon failing while the OHLE is still undamaged and working would be better than a diesel engine which only helps if the lack of aircon is caused by loss of power.

[JayMac]

Thus, the diesel engine in the 'electric' sets becomes just about keeping the lights on and the saloon temperature correct.

With the ability to move to a station to de-train passengers if necessary. With the ability to reach and use a crossover to a relief or bi-directional line to pass an obstruction. It's not just about providing hotel power. The diesel engine provides much more in the way of operational flexibility than just keeping the lights on and the saloons comfortable. Much reduced chance of the horror stories we hear of passengers trapped on trains for hours at a time unable to move forward or backward.

And, as already mentioned, freedom of movement in depots.