Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Electric train]

Roughly a year until actual physical work will start and bright green marking have been sprayed trackside for most of the route between Didcot and Reading.  They look about the right distance apart to be locations for the catenary masts.

They will be using driven steel piles so will go in quite quick, the structures could on top straight away.  There is a push to get started, DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) find it embarrassing when NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are efficient 

[Bristolboy]

I read somewhere about rumours that the government was going to accelerate many infrastructure projects, including linked to the railways (and this electrification - both start date and pace) to give a boost to the economy from more construction jobs (whilst still avoiding calling it a plan b).

[anthony215]

I read somewhere about rumours that the government was going to accelerate many infrastructure projects, including linked to the railways (and this electrification - both start date and pace) to give a boost to the economy from more construction jobs (whilst still avoiding calling it a plan b).

Well they need to speed up the contstruction of the 2 high output trains which Network rail are going to use to speed up the electrification projects.

The government should also in my opinion hurry up and order some new emu's are its is looking very likely that there are not going to be enough emu's to cover all these newly electrified routes especially since they still have signed the thameslink contract.

I suppose Northern could use thoe class 317's that are in storage but I think new emu's will be needed for the Great Western especially since you have not chance of fitting a class 319 down the  branches to Marlow and Henley On Thames.

[IndustryInsider]

According to the latest CP4^▸ (Control Period 4 - the five year period between 2009 and 2014) enhancements plans (updated this month) the electrification train will be constructed by next April, but not in use until October:

High output base Construction complete/available for use April 2013
Consist 1 Piling system available for use October 2013
Consist 2 Structures system available for use November 2013
Consist 3 Wiring system available for use March 2014

Regarding new EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), the new franchisee will be responsible for their procurement in whatever form that takes surely?

[Southern Stag]

Regarding new EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), the new franchisee will be responsible for their procurement in whatever form that takes surely?

Unless there is too much of a delay to the franchising process hopefully the new TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) will be able to procure the new EMUs. An possibility which is looking increasingly likely is the North West scheme being finished but no EMUs being available. 319s being released are dependant on the delivery of new Thameslink EMUs, which is suffering delays.

[Electric train]

The EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)'s for the Thames Valley area it would make sense to ensure they had some compatibility with Crossrail units.

In general the GW^▸ (Great Western) electrification is on time, there are a few project issues which is not surprising given it's complexity, the Government could push for acceleration it will come at a larger price tag the existing program was designed to a price agreed with DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)

[ray951]

I saw this on Twitter earlier from Modern Railways:

"With 319s overcommitted, Southern is ordering more EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) and now we hear DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to order 125mph EMUs for Oxford - double-price Desiros, anyone?"

Anyone know any more and given how long it is taking to sign the Thameslink train contract with Siemens there is a good chance that the infrastructure will be ready but we will have no electric trains available:-)

[Electric train]

I saw this on Twitter earlier from Modern Railways:

"With 319s overcommitted, Southern is ordering more EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) and now we hear DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to order 125mph EMUs for Oxford - double-price Desiros, anyone?"

The GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) electrification and Crossrail is being gauged to W12 and the GWML will be intermodal all of which mean double deck trains are a potential!!!

Anyone know any more and given how long it is taking to sign the Thameslink train contract with Siemens there is a good chance that the infrastructure will be ready but we will have no electric trains available:-)

  Thameslink on the other had just about clears W6 gauge.

I have heard from a very reliable source that the use of 313's is being investigated for the services off of the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) through to the South when the link between the ECML and Thameslink is commissioned

[John R]

The 40 vehicles ordered today (8x5) will be delivered in Dec 14. I'm guessing that they will enable 8 Class 319's to be cascaded to the North West to avoid the embarrassing position whereby the second stage of electrification there is completed with no rolling stock to utilise it.

But clearly the even more embarrassing prospect is looming whereby GW^▸ (Great Western) electrification is completed to Oxford with no stock available, hence the first steps to procurement of a larger tranche of EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit). Given that there is now much more electrification envisaged up to 2019 now, this makes sense, as the 319s will then find alternative uses once they become available.

Another possibility is that the govt is hedging its bets against the Siemens deal collapsing in which case some more conventional emus would be helpful as a stop gap measure.

I'd be surprised if 313's are being considered for Thameslink work. They'll be over 40 years old, have a maximum speed of 75, are only 3 coaches in length, and would not be at all suitable for the GN outer suburban services that are envisaged to run onto Thameslink.  (Not sure how many, if any, of the inner suburban Moorgate services are expected to switch to the Thameslink route.)

[paul7575]

The GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) electrification and Crossrail is being gauged to W12 and the GWML will be intermodal all of which mean double deck trains are a potential!!!

Sorry, there's a bit of confusion there.  'Intermodal' simply describes the concept of freight containers (in fact any goods) that can be transported flexibly by sea, on rail, and on lorries during differnt parts of their journey.   Therefore the GW^▸ (Great Western) is already an intermodal route, but not yet at UK^▸ (United Kingdom) gauge W12 throughout.   

(But then are you thinking of the system where containers complete with road trailers are carried on rail wagons?  That cannot be done in any UK gauge either.)

Anyway, UK W10 and W12 gauges still do not allow for continental style double decker (DD) passenger trains either, their overall heights are only a few cm more than C1^▸ ((on coaches) National route restriction)/C3 carriage gauge, the difference is all to do with opening out curved structures to allow for the corners of the containers, and the ensuing sway of the container outside its normal envelope. Network Rail include a diagram of the relative sizes of the different gauge profiles in most of the RUS^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) documents, it's in Appendix A of the Freight RUS for instance:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/freight/freight%20rus.pdf

...you'll see there that W12 provides no greater height than W10, it is a slight width gain only and certainly not the solution you seem to think it is.  In fact W12 as can be seen provides no height improvement over the original W6...

To allow for DD trains a route needs to be completely rebuilt to UIC/TSI GB^▸ (Great Britain), GB+ or GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line), and in the UK this would also require a massive amount of work to the infrastructure below the solebar, in particular thousands of platforms would have to be cut back and lowered, and many girder bridge structures would require modification.

PS Crossrail is explicitly not being built to allow for DD trains - it will always remain a barrier, and as it will be providing the majority of the suburban services in the future on either side ot the tunnel - I think you can foresee no change to any remaining non-Crossrail services.

Paul

[IndustryInsider]

I saw this on Twitter earlier from Modern Railways:

"With 319s overcommitted, Southern is ordering more EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) and now we hear DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) to order 125mph EMUs for Oxford - double-price Desiros, anyone?"

It would make sense in terms of uniform timings to have a fleet of 125mph EMUs operate the fast Oxford to London services that aren't to be operated by IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.).  They could also potentially operate the Newbury to London services after electrification.  Looking forward to reading an official announcement about this if it's true!

[paul7575]

Hitachi 395s (aka Javelins) perhaps? 

They are basically operated as 125 mph units (although capable of 140 mph).  Much commonality with electric IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.), but with a commuter door layout for a stopping service.

Paul

[Electric train]

The GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) electrification and Crossrail is being gauged to W12 and the GWML will be intermodal all of which mean double deck trains are a potential!!!

Sorry, there's a bit of confusion there.  'Intermodal' simply describes the concept of freight containers (in fact any goods) that can be transported flexibly by sea, on rail, and on lorries during differnt parts of their journey.   Therefore the GW^▸ (Great Western) is already an intermodal route, but not yet at UK^▸ (United Kingdom) gauge W12 throughout.   

Opps sorry meant interoperable, to the extent that the existing 12 miles of GW electrification is going to be re-registered to accommodate the additional clearances and continental types of pantographs.  Crossrail is being gauged for double deck trains

None of the GN suburban's are planned to go Thameslink, the 313 option is being looked at as a "Plan B" and likely for driver route knowledge from mid to late 2015 when the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) - Thameslink connection will be available

[anthony215]

I wonder with the recent order of additional electrostars for Southern could we see some class 377's being subleased to FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (or whoever is operating the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise) come 2016 if the new Thameslink units are only just entering service.

[Electric train]

The Thameslink timetable change is set for December 2018 with the 24 trains per hour through the core.

In many ways it would make sense (although this is in short supply in the railways nowadays) for the GW^▸ (Great Western) TV trains to be a version of the Crossrail trains so there is some compatibility should there ever be the need to rescue each other