Great Western Main Line electrification - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

Or...

5) It's our land, it's public money, we don't need external consent, so will just get on and do what's best from an engineering perspective. You're living in an affluent area - support your own village hall. 

[Electric train]

Is this process consultation or negotiation?

Consultation = we listen to what you say, we understand what you are saying; we will do our best with our budget to address your concerns.

Negotiation = you (Local Authority / Government / Statutory Body) have or are intending to use your powers to bare on us what can we agree what we can do to meet your demand.


Consultation is all about pacifying the natives, negotiation is about complying with the Law.   GWEP^▸ (Great Western Electrification Program) (West of Maidenhead) is being done under (I believe) permitted development; the exceptions are place like Sydney Gardens, Maidenhead Bridge which are listed, the current plan to electrify the GW^▸ (Great Western) Main Line have been around for almost a decade so why is only now the structures are up are folks getting up in arms, even Mk3 headspands would not look a lot different in terms of visual impact

[TaplowGreen]

Or...

5) It's our land, it's public money, we don't need external consent, so will just get on and do what's best from an engineering perspective. You're living in an affluent area - support your own village hall. 

......can I take this opportunity to welcome Kim Jong-un to the Coffee shop forum?

[paul7575]

Is this process consultation or negotiation?

Consultation = we listen to what you say, we understand what you are saying; we will do our best with our budget to address your concerns.

Negotiation = you (Local Authority / Government / Statutory Body) have or are intending to use your powers to bare on us what can we agree what we can do to meet your demand.

I was reading some Kensington and Chelsea stuff about Crossrail 2 a few weeks ago, and the point being made was that it was a consultation and not a referendum.   They were really making the point that thousands of pro-forma responses just stating do not build it at all, as though that were the question being asked, were not exactly useful.

I got the impression that the whole debate in Chelsea has been hijacked by a few high profile individuals, it will be interesting to see how the council carry on in their seemingly sensible discussions with TfL^» (Transport for London - about)...

Paul 

[TonyK]

......can I take this opportunity to welcome Kim Jong-un to the Coffee shop forum?

Kim Wrong 'Un, more like...

[onthecushions]

According to the Henley Standard, NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are considering new gantries through the Goring gap.  This obviously fuels expectation that something will be done to reduce the visual impact of the OHLE, which as someone mentioned earlier may create a precedent for further down the line.

http://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/news.php?id=42176

This was an amazing statement by NR - can one imagine trying to replace bits of steelwork, after the system has been commissioned and is live  and in daily use?

In 2011, Atkins produced an Environmental Impact Assessment Report that had a section (8.1,2) on the Historic Environment. I cannot see anywhere where the Chilterns, and North Wessex Downs AONB^▸ (Areas Of Natural Beauty)'s were even mentioned. This may well be the root of the problem that NR has been set. Had they used people with local knowledge this would not have been missed (if it has). The original BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) Mark 1 diagonally braced supports, now with AT feeder posts above, offered a better visual balance than the crude Italian sourced structures being installed. They give a further meaning to the phrase "Spaghetti Western".

OTC

[Tim]

Or...

5) It's our land, it's public money, we don't need external consent, so will just get on and do what's best from an engineering perspective. You're living in an affluent area - support your own village hall. 

quite.  Although they could donate their used paint brushes to the village hall I suppose.

Largely this sort of thing is less a serious objection and more people with time on their hand wanting to feel like they are listened to rather than having things done to them over which they have no control.  NR^» (Network Rail - home page), needs to send a charming lady or gentleman to a few meetings to explain and show that people are being listened to.  They should do no more no less.

[lordgoata]

In 2011, Atkins produced an Environmental Impact Assessment Report that had a section (8.1,2) on the Historic Environment. I cannot see anywhere where the Chilterns, and North Wessex Downs AONB^▸ (Areas Of Natural Beauty)'s were even mentioned. This may well be the root of the problem that NR^» (Network Rail - home page) has been set.

As I understand it (and I don't follow it to that level of detail), that is the crux of the issue. Whilst NR were and are able to build under permitted development, there are tighter restrictions for work carried out in AONB. One or some of those restrictions included visual impact, and NR have admitted, repeatedly, that they did not comply to those restrictions. I believe that is where the basis for the legal challenge will come from.

Living in Goring and using the trains daily has me split. I think the things are bloody horrendous when out walking and taking photos - the view from Hartslock looking back over the river and across Goring is horrible with these huge glistening things blighting the lovely country side.

But anything that makes it quieter, cleaner, faster, more comfortable and reliable for my day-to-day commute is highly welcomed.

My only previous experience of electrification was when traveling in Sweden, and the area I was in I believe was wire-span and the supports were very thin. It had very little visual impact to me, so I was expecting something similar when the electrification of the main line was announced - which was one reason I was so surprised how chunky it all looked.

But having had it explained on here and having had other discussions about 3rd rail etc etc, I understand the reasons and accept it is what it is.

Personally, the last thing I want is more upheaval for the next x months/years while it's all replaced.

[Bmblbzzz]

Is this process consultation or negotiation?

Consultation = we listen to what you say, we understand what you are saying; we will do our best with our budget to address your concerns.

Negotiation = you (Local Authority / Government / Statutory Body) have or are intending to use your powers to bare on us what can we agree what we can do to meet your demand.


Consultation is all about pacifying the natives, negotiation is about complying with the Law.   GWEP^▸ (Great Western Electrification Program) (West of Maidenhead) is being done under (I believe) permitted development; the exceptions are place like Sydney Gardens, Maidenhead Bridge which are listed, the current plan to electrify the GW^▸ (Great Western) Main Line have been around for almost a decade so why is only now the structures are up are folks getting up in arms, even Mk3 headspands would not look a lot different in terms of visual impact

You are Ford Prefect and I claim my five pounds!

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

This from Rail News.  NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are certainly not holding back in raising expectations about changes to the OHLE through the Goring Gap.  Problem will come if ^ or more likely when - realisation falls below expectation.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2016/05/16-network-rail-set-to-replace.html

[ellendune]

I am not sure that is is NR^» (Network Rail - home page)'s doing it seems to be Journalists picking up one NR statement and failing to read between the lines.  What NR have said is just what they need to say legally to ensure that the review is a real review not just window dressing. 

[Noggin]

This from Rail News.  NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are certainly not holding back in raising expectations about changes to the OHLE through the Goring Gap.  Problem will come if ^ or more likely when - realisation falls below expectation.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2016/05/16-network-rail-set-to-replace.html

Conceivably it might not be that difficult, especially if you do it before full electric services start running.

I'm sure that on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) out of Paddington they've replaced some of the headspans without doing a full dewire - just prop up the wires with a crane, slot in the new gantry, then do the small part steel and fix to the existing wires.   

[SandTEngineer]

According to the Henley Standard, NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are considering new gantries through the Goring gap.  This obviously fuels expectation that something will be done to reduce the visual impact of the OHLE, which as someone mentioned earlier may create a precedent for further down the line.

http://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/news.php?id=42176

This was an amazing statement by NR - can one imagine trying to replace bits of steelwork, after the system has been commissioned and is live  and in daily use?

In 2011, Atkins produced an Environmental Impact Assessment Report that had a section (8.1,2) on the Historic Environment. I cannot see anywhere where the Chilterns, and North Wessex Downs AONB^▸ (Areas Of Natural Beauty)'s were even mentioned. This may well be the root of the problem that NR has been set. Had they used people with local knowledge this would not have been missed (if it has). The original BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) Mark 1 diagonally braced supports, now with AT feeder posts above, offered a better visual balance than the crude Italian sourced structures being installed. They give a further meaning to the phrase "Spaghetti Western".

OTC

I think thats being a bit unfair to the consultants and NR.  The statutory bodies were consulted (noting that some didn't bother to respond).  Its not if they weren't aware of the nature of the structures at the time.  Quote from the NR website:

Environment

In August 2011 a full environmental impact assessment of the Great Western route was carried out.

As part of the process our consultants submitted an environmental scoping report to local authorities and statutory consultees in October 2011 to agree the detail of the assessments and surveys.

Environmental Impact Assessment Scoping Report
The feedback provided by the local authorities and statutory consultees was used to produce an Environment Statement (ES) covering the whole project. Information from the ES was then used to produce a series of volumes, enabling the production of reports relevant to each of the 15 local authorities the scheme will pass through. Separate general volumes have also been produced to take into account the differences in legislation between England and Wales.

We've taken this approach to provide robust and consistent supporting documentation for use with the various planning, listed building, conservation area and environmental consent applications that will be required along the length of the scheme.

The Environmental Statement considers the environmental impacts and our proposed mitigation during both the construction and operation phases of the scheme.

In particular the West Berkshire consultation and response can be found here
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?root=\projects\Great%20Western&dir=%5cprojects%5cGreat%20Western%5cElectrification%20Environmental%20Statements%5cEngland%5cWest%20Berkshire

And the South Oxfordshire consultation and response can be found here
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?root=\projects\Great%20Western&dir=%5cprojects%5cGreat%20Western%5cElectrification%20Environmental%20Statements%5cEngland%5cSouth%20Oxfordshire

[ellendune]

Interesting indeed.  This puts a rather different perspective on the issue and seems to place responsibility at the door of SODC planning department. 
I note the report said:

Impacts on landscape character during operation are most likely to arise from the removal of vegetation to allow the installation of OLE^▸ (Overhead Line Equipment, more often "OHLE") gantries and associated infrastructure. Significant effects would be generated by the permanent presence of additional infrastructure. This includes permanent significant slight to moderate adverse effects to parts of the North Wessex Downs and Chilterns AONBs^▸ (Areas Of Natural Beauty).

I note the proposed measure were:

Landscape and Visual
Investigate the potential of planting replacement trees outside Scheme boundary, for example in areas
adjacent to the Scheme.

Investigate the potential for hedgerow planting within Network Rail land, in areas that would not impact the
vegetation clearance area.

Investigate the potential for grass, wildflower, heathland planting within Network Rail land.

What is being suggested now goes a long way beyond that. I don't see the residents of Goring voicing their concerns at SODC and I suppose since NR^» (Network Rail - home page) wish to reach a settlement with the planners they are unlikely to put blame on them either - at least in public. 

I had thought the fire at SODC offices might be a mitigating factor, but this is 2 years before the fire. 

Updated to add proposed measures.

[Stroud Valleys]

As much as I like to have pretty looking structures, at the end of the day there have been numerous consultations and amble time for various bodies and organisations to get 100% satisfaction before any work has started.

In any event, the electrification work is years behind schedule and millions of pounds over budget. The priority is to get the job done, i.e. get the wires to Bristol, Newbury, Oxford and Swansea. Only once this has been completed should the Goring Gap be considered. We cannot allow any further delays. That's the problem with no getting fully involved with the planning stage, and that is not Network Rail's fault.