Night Riviera - merged posts, ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[RivieraRegular]

As my username suggests I do a round trip on the Night Riviera once every 2-3 weeks all year round, I found this thread while searching to see if its just me or does it really breakdown so often.

Many of the failures you discuss here I was on including the getting towed back to Plymouth by an engineering train last October (by the way the replacement IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) definitely did have first class) and this Thursday's failure to leave Plymouth as the breaks were stuck on (this is what we were told).

I am a huge fan of the Riviera when it works and have nothing but praise for the fantastic staff many of whom now recognise me, but the unreliability is becoming worrying to the extent that I often go up to London a day early if I have a meeting I can't miss just in case, which kind of defeats the point of a sleeper train.

Don't even get me started on how quickly the refurbished cabins are wearing out!

Breakdowns are quite rare now and the instance quoted in the last post was not actually a failure.    It had actually struck a beer barrel on the track which could happen to any train anywhere.

Not sure if you've ever been to platform five at Plymouth,  but I'm sorry I find your beer barrel explanation of the cause of Thursday's breakdown pure fantasy. Perhaps you should visit and speculate how it could possibly have got there and indeed quite how it could have disabled an entire train from a low speed frontal impact.

[Western Pathfinder]

The Sleeper service is Loco hauled,and this being the case it has exposed hose connections for the brakes at the front of the loco ,in this case hitting an object such as a beer barrel or something similar placed on the track would cause a total loss of brake pressure leading to a failure to proceed.

 Welcome to the forum Riviera Regular,one hopes your travels on this service will be more pleasant in future ,and that you will find plenty of interesting subjects here
Also do please take a while to look around,and when you have done so you will find that our membership includes many who understand a great deal more than most about our Railways and the way in which they operate,Fantasy pure or not ,is not something that we indulge in here, which you would do well to remember in future posts WP.

[IndustryInsider]

what stats does anyone have to put numbers rather than spin on its performance?

There are several sites that list historic data, with ontimetrains.co.uk being my preferred one.  It can be a bit difficult to keep tabs of the sleeper as its running schedule does get altered quite a lot, but the below are ones I've found:

Details over the last three months are here:

Down (MON-FRI):  (Paddington (London) - next trains)/PNZ/23:45/07:50/GW^▸ (Great Western);dayOfWeekRange=All;dateRange=12W" target="_blank">https://www.ontimetrains.co.uk/journeys/PAD/PNZ/23:45/07:50/GW;dayOfWeekRange=All;dateRange=12W
Down (SUN):  https://www.ontimetrains.co.uk/journeys/PAD/PNZ/23:50/08:49/GW;dayOfWeekRange=All;dateRange=12W

Up (MON-THU):  https://www.ontimetrains.co.uk/journeys/PNZ/PAD/21:45/05:04/GW;dayOfWeekRange=Weekdays;dateRange=12W
Up (FRI):  https://www.ontimetrains.co.uk/journeys/PNZ/PAD/21:45/05:07/GW;dayOfWeekRange=Weekdays;dateRange=12W
Up (SUN):  https://www.ontimetrains.co.uk/journeys/PNZ/PAD/21:15/05:04/GW;dayOfWeekRange=Sundays;dateRange=12W

Overall performance doesn't seem to have been too bad, given it's not as much of a 'time critical' service as others?

[Celestial]

Fantasy pure or not ,is not something that we indulge in here, which you would do well to remember in future posts WP.

Is it just me, or is that an unnecessary slap for a new member, especially coming from a moderator?  It would discourage me from ever coming back to the forum, being spoken to like a teacher on my second post.

[grahame]

Fantasy pure or not ,is not something that we indulge in here, which you would do well to remember in future posts WP.

Is it just me, or is that an unnecessary slap for a new member, especially coming from a moderator?  It would discourage me from ever coming back to the forum, being spoken to like a teacher on my second post.

Tough call ... I looked at the original post.  "but I'm sorry I find your beer barrel explanation of the cause of Thursday's breakdown pure fantasy." ... polite, but took my breath away too when I read it, and WP's answer was in line with that breath being taken away.

I do hope that RivieraRegular is not put off posting; the message from WP is correct in suggesting "hey, have a look around - there are already many answers here", yet in practise it's very hard to find the wood for the trees sometimes.

I have no trouble believing that the entire train was disabled (and replaced by an IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train)) because it hit a beer barrel. How the beer barrel got in the way of the train, I wouldn't know;  strongest bet - some sort of vandalism, with accident or weather being less likely runners.  None of those likely to be the fault of GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), but it's their role / part of the franchise to pick up the job of getting customers to final destination station, and to take the flack.  It's usually better, I think, to tell the customer what's happened when a train is capped like this, but I say "usually"; exceptions to the generality because:
*) Don't want to give other people ideas
*) Don't want to scare passenger into needless worry about "will it be safe to go through on the replacement"
*) Don't actually know what's been hit as the incident develops, so couldn't fully inform the customer; it's a fault on the train, but at an early stage was that some sort of mechanical problem on the loco, or it hitting something?

Once upon a time, a long long time ago, if something went wrong with a vehicle in a train / it was damaged, it could be removed from the train and parked up in a siding and the rest of the train continue.  And if it was a locomotive that was disabled, another could be requisitioned from nearby.  Those days are gone - GWR operates 4 x class 57 locomotives suitable for the sleeper, as opposed to BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) who operated 512 class 47 locomotives.  When the train sets out from Penzance it's basically on its own until Reading, with fingers crossed that the old locomotive makes it.   Failure along the way ... there is no spare "Thunderbird" rescue locomotive;  working with freight / engineering operators the best GWR can hope / ask for is a tow to Plymouth, Exeter, Taunton or Westbury, with their spare loco at Penzance or Reading rescuing the train during the next day.
 

[grahame]

Last night ... "a day in the life of a sleeper train" ...

Up service - 28 late off Plymouth ("awaiting connections") ... scheduled to run via Taunton and Bristol Temple Meads. Diverted from Exeter via Yeovil, Castle Cary, Westbury and Melksham, resumed scheduled route at Thingley; just 3 minutes late into Reading and on time (05:04) at Paddington.

Down service - scheduled 23:50 off Paddington but did not leave until 01:33 ("awaiting crew").  Ran via Bath and Taunton, About 80 minutes late between Reading and Exeter, on time from there (110 minute stop reduced to 30) and into Plymouth at 06:12 (2 minutes late).  As the empties arrived in Paddington at 21:51 (scheduled 21:12) I suspect that the passengers didn't mind and perhaps didn't even notice the late departure.

For future record - Truro to Penzance closed, engineering works this week.  Cowley Bridge closed on Sunday evening - flooding from Storm Dennis.

[Umberleigh]

Welcome to Riviera Regular. I’ve used the Sleeper for leisure in the past but not sure I would trust it if I had, say, a job interview to travel for.

It’s true that breakdowns are comparatively rare on the Sleeper, but unfortunately the impact of any breakdown far exceeds that of a daytime train (as I’m sure we all appreciate). Rather like a Premier Inn turfing all its customers out from their beds at 4am and offering them camp beds in the cafe instead.

Can anyone with inside knowledge confirm if those failures that do occur are majorly down to the age of the locomotives? I was wondering idly to myself if a 9 car IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) could be redesigned as a sleeper, or perhaps HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power cars used with the existing coaches.

[bobm]

Seems all UK^▸ (United Kingdom) sleeper services are plagued by locomotive problems.  Ask Caledonian sleeper passengers. 

[Celestial]

I was wondering idly to myself if a 9 car IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) could be redesigned as a sleeper

Or even two 5 car sets with one stopping at Plymouth (a bit like the old days when a coach was dropped off), and one going on to Penzance.

Mind you, think of the fun the inevitable night it was short formed.  Come on, cwtch up everyone!

[TonyK]

As my username suggests I do a round trip on the Night Riviera once every 2-3 weeks all year round, I found this thread while searching to see if its just me or does it really breakdown so often.

Many of the failures you discuss here I was on including the getting towed back to Plymouth by an engineering train last October (by the way the replacement IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) definitely did have first class) and this Thursday's failure to leave Plymouth as the breaks were stuck on (this is what we were told).

Welcome indeed to the Forum. The ongoing issues with the sleeper are read by many people on this site who have never ever been on it. Your regular use of the service gives you an exalted status, and I shall watch keenly for updates!

I am a huge fan of the Riviera when it works and have nothing but praise for the fantastic s

taff many of whom now recognise me, but the unreliability is becoming worrying to the extent that I often go up to London a day early if I have a meeting I can't miss just in case, which kind of defeats the point of a sleeper train.

The ultimate belt and braces approach!

[Umberleigh]

I remember seeing a La Poste TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) with no windows at Gare du Lyon back in 2003, so there is a precedent for adapting high speed trains for other uses

[nickswift99]

They stopped running in 2015. There's a good article here https://www.connaissance-du-rail.com/reportages-et-photos/la-fin-des-tgv-postaux/ (apologies it's in French - I've added a google translate version below)

After more than 30 years of good and loyal service, postal TGVs^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) finally bowed out on Saturday June 27, 2015, ending more than a century and a half of collaboration between the postal administration and the railway.

Postal TGV Paris - Cavaillon. Rame 951. Vinneuf
On June 8, 2015, the 951 train ensures the TGV 6997 Paris - Cavaillon, seen here in Vinneuf, in Yonne. Photo Pierre BAZIN
It was in 1982 that La Poste, attracted by the TGV formula, decided to acquire this type of equipment for its rapid delivery.

Two trains are then ordered.

Composed of two drive units framing eight trailers, each with a large side door on each side, they can take 250 specific containers loaded with mail and parcels.

In fact, five half-trains, numbered 901 to 905, called sections, will be delivered to ensure the reserve.

Assigned to the Paris-Sud-Est depot, they will enter into service from October 1, 1984.

Each day, they will make two round trips between Paris-Charolais and Lyon-Montrochet, where a warehouse has been specially fitted out. One of the two relationships marks a stop at Mâcon-Loché, where a specific platform has also been created on the service connection joining the high-speed line to the conventional line.

Postal TGV. Rame 952 in Marolels-sur-Seine. Train 6997 Paris - Cavaillon
Train 952 in Marolles-sur-Seine, June 16, 2015, with the TGV 6997 Paris - Cavaillon. Photo Pierre BAZIN
On November 7, 1994, a new sorting center was put into service in Cavaillon.

As a result, Lyon-Montrochet was abandoned and the new service now consists of four daily connections from the capital: two to Cavaillon and two to Mâcon.

This requires the use of an additional train obtained by transforming the first class South-East train no. 38, which will become the postal sections no. 906 and 907.

Postal TGV to Crisenoy. Rame 951. TGV 6991 Paris - Mâcon
Passage to Crisenoy of the 951 train with the TGV 6991 Paris - Mâcon. Photo Pierre BAZIN, June 17, 2015
In 2003, the operating numbers of the trains changed according to the following scheme:

- Train 951: drive units 923-001 and 923-006 (ex sections 901 and 906)

- Rame 952: drive units 923-003 and 923-005 (ex-sections 903 and 905)

- Rame 953: drive units 923-004 and 923-007 (ex sections 904 and 907)

- Train 954: power train 923-002 (ex-section 902); half-oar ensuring the reserve.

In 2006, a new livery, with much more visible Post logos, appeared.

At the same time, the service of the Atlantic facade is mentioned. But the idea was quickly abandoned due to the fall in the number of priority letters to be sent, a phenomenon accentuated by the development of electronic messaging and the success of the "green letter", delivered in two days.

Postal TGV to Champdeuil. Rame 953. TGV 6996 Cavaillon - Paris
In the early morning at Champdeuil, on the high-speed Interconnection line, the 953 train goes to Paris with the TGV 6996 from Cavaillon. Photo Pierre BAZIN. June 26, 2015
As the volume of mail transported continues to decrease, the round trip ¨Paris - Cavaillon de jour was eliminated in 2009.

Since then, only three daily rotations remained, one on Cavaillon, two on Mâcon, which enabled postal trains to make average monthly journeys of 17,600 km, a total of approximately 8,500,000 km since their implementation service in 1984.

But the fall in the volumes of mail transported continuing, it was decided to definitively stop the service of postal TGV on Saturday June 27, 2015.

This led to the closure of the Paris-Charolais sorting center, replaced by a new warehouse in Bonneuil-sur-Marne, grouping mail to the entire territory.

In the future, it is planned to send mail by swap bodies, either by conventional freight trains or by trucks, depending on the destinations. However, nothing has yet been decided on the future of rail transport in the area of ​​mail transport.

La Poste would like to resell the trains, but given their special architecture, they are more likely to be scrapped.

[72c]

Does anybody know why the current curtailed Sleeper service commences/terminates at Plymouth rather Truro?   A Truro start/finish would offer a better customer experience perhaps.

[grahame]

I remember seeing a La Poste TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) with no windows at Gare du Lyon back in 2003, so there is a precedent for adapting high speed trains for other uses

They stopped running in 2015. There's a good article here https://www.connaissance-du-rail.com/reportages-et-photos/la-fin-des-tgv-postaux/ (apologies it's in French - I've added a google translate version below)

After more than 30 years of good and loyal service, postal TGVs finally bowed out on Saturday June 27, 2015, ending more than a century and a half of collaboration between the postal administration and the railway.

[snip]

Very interesting ...

More about these trains on WikiPedia.


Image - Florian Fèvre (I have trimmed it), Cretive Commons 4.0 license

[stuving]

Very interesting ...

Well, if you say so. A couple of extra points, then:

La Poste did use TPOs^▸ (Travelling Post Office), with the last two running to Brittany (until 1995) and Besancon (2001). But by then the amount of urgent overnight letter mail was too small to justify that train, and the bulk was press and pre-sorted. By 2015 that "too small" applied to the TGV^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) routes as well, and most of what they were carrying wasn't needed next day.

So the plan then was for containerisation; these go by road to Bonneuil sur Marne, then share a (slow) train to another similar platforme. How that works now I can't find any mention of - which may be good news, of course.

But the Class 325s are still in use, aren't they? There are regular nightly services between Willesden PRDC and at least Sheildmuir, Warrington, and Gateshead.