Night Riviera - merged posts, ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[martyjon]

Alternative locomotives, what has happened to all those class 67's that were redundant following the cessation of the Royal Mail rail operation and closure of the RailNet centres, they might just be more reliable than the 57's.

[TaplowGreen]

Flybe now fly NQY^▸ (Newquay (Station))-LHR daily. A 1 hr 20 min flight landing at 0830.....the convenience & speed of this option will hoover up a lot of Cornish customers who previously may have used the sleeper. Problems like this one will drive even more people away from the train & onto the plane

So presumably requiring being at NQY by 0630. No public transport will get you to the airport anywhere close to that early. The first bus to the airport from Newquay is just before 0900 departing Newquay bus station, and that’s if you can get to Newquay in time for it.

Public transport links to Newquay airport is poor, but as a regular driver of 1/6 of the daily bus services from Newquay to airport I rarely drop or pick up at the airport so can see why the links are poor.

There's a large car park with over 500 spaces. I would doubt that the target market for the early morning flight to Heathrow would be expecting to arrive by bus at that time of day, especially given the size of the catchment area.

[phile]

Alternative locomotives, what has happened to all those class 67's that were redundant following the cessation of the Royal Mail rail operation and closure of the RailNet centres, they might just be more reliable than the 57's.

This suggestion has been done to death over the years and, in a nutshell, it is not practicable to use 67s for various reasons.    The performance of the 57s has improved immensely over the last 2 years.

[IndustryInsider]

The 57s are performing OK, but will need replacing sooner rather than later.  Rather than modify and use other stock approaching the end of its life, such as HST^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) power cars, I’d favour Class 68s, or two Class 88s (if they would provide enough oomph up the Cornish banks), or even a Class 68 and 88 combination if possible.  The 88 could draw power from the OHLE^▸ (Over-Head Line Equipment (electrification via catenary)) when available and also act as emergency rescue for the 68 if in difficulty.  Leasing costs might be the deciding factor though.

When the direct award ends and a proper franchise is let I would expect a longer term strategy to be clearer, including replacement of the carriages during the life of that franchise.  I don’t expect the sleeper to finish anytime soon.

[TaplowGreen]

The 57s are performing OK, but will need replacing sooner rather than later.  Rather than modify and use other stock approaching the end of its life, such as HST^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) power cars, I’d favour Class 68s, or two Class 88s (if they would provide enough oomph up the Cornish banks), or even a Class 68 and 88 combination if possible.  The 88 could draw power from the OHLE^▸ (Over-Head Line Equipment (electrification via catenary)) when available and also act as emergency rescue for the 68 if in difficulty.  Leasing costs might be the deciding factor though.

When the direct award ends and a proper franchise is let I would expect a longer term strategy to be clearer, including replacement of the carriages during the life of that franchise.  I don’t expect the sleeper to finish anytime soon.

Other than Sundays (up) and Thurs/Fridays (down), how busy is the sleeper generally?

Is it profitable?

[IndustryInsider]

I don’t know.  I last used it in the early 90s!  I believe from what I’ve heard that overall it just about breaks even, but if it’s getting busier as others suggest then hopefully it’ll turn a profit, albeit a modest one.

Many people use it for ‘the experience’, so whilst a flight to/from Newquay will offer some competition, certainly if you live in or near Newquay, and it’s good that there’s another option, I doubt it’ll affect passenger numbers too much.

[LiskeardRich]

The 57s are fairly reliable, we just hear about them every time they fail because of the service they’re hauling!

Where’s the discussion and calling for the replacement of the 150 that failed at Bodmin on Sunday, or the one that failed last week on the Looe branch. That’s more 150 failures in Cornwall alone in the last week than 57 failures across the network!

[broadgage]

The failure of the loco on the sleeper is arguably of greater importance than a failure of most other services.
In many cases daytime passengers can take the next service, being turfed of the sleeper in order to await a non sleeper service is likely to be a much greater inconvenience.

This is an argument for re-purposed HST^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) power cars since a sleeper thus powered should be able to complete its journey on one engine if need be.
Proceeding at reduced performance and loosing time would be preferred by most passengers to changing to a non sleeper train.
The disruption to other trains would also be reduced.

[bobm]

The 57s are fairly reliable, we just hear about them every time they fail because of the service they’re hauling!

..and given the scarcity of 57s in GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) land they are often harder to rescue when they do fail.   The errant loco was left in the sidings at Par after the rest of the train had been taken to Plymouth yesterday.  I don't know if it is still there.

[grahame]

The 57s are fairly reliable, we just hear about them every time they fail because of the service they’re hauling!

..and given the scarcity of 57s in GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) land they are often harder to rescue when they do fail. 

Perhaps there's a case for standardisation - using 802/4s - which would differ from 802/0s purely in their internal configurations.

[IndustryInsider]

I’ll side with Broadgage there in that underfloor engines are not suitable for a sleeper carriage.

[broadgage]

I’ll side with Broadgage there in that underfloor engines are not suitable for a sleeper carriage.

Not only that, but IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train - replacement for HSTs (manufactured by Hitachi in Kobe, Japan)) style beds if as hard as the seats might find little favour. Though a plywood base covered with 4mm of foam has the merit of being cheaper than a proper bed.

[eightonedee]

I think you'll find that that they only drag that extra locomotive between Paddington and Reading, so as to make the reversal at the platform slicker. It is added and removed at Reading, where it quite likely does spend its time doing not a lot. If the sleeper did drag a second locomotive all the way, then of course that would be a spare, available on the spot.

Thanks Stuving - I never realised that they only "topped and tailed" between Reading and Paddington. I had occasionally wondered how they manged a train in each direction with two locos when the pool looked so small. Looks like my suggestion at least smoked out who likes 57s and who does not!

[paul7575]

I think you'll find that that they only drag that extra locomotive between Paddington and Reading, so as to make the reversal at the platform slicker. It is added and removed at Reading, where it quite likely does spend its time doing not a lot. If the sleeper did drag a second locomotive all the way, then of course that would be a spare, available on the spot.

Thanks Stuving - I never realised that they only "topped and tailed" between Reading and Paddington. I had occasionally wondered how they manged a train in each direction with two locos when the pool looked so small. Looks like my suggestion at least smoked out who likes 57s and who does not!

Hasn’t the topping and tailing from Reading only been fairly recent, since they lost the use of Old Oak Common?

Paul

[bobm]

Yes - the loco used to come off Old Oak and follow the train into Paddington and couple up on platform 1.

There was a time in the recent past when the 57s were being particularly troublesome that the trains ran topped and tailed throughout and had a travelling fitter on board.