Night Riviera - merged posts, ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

An infrequent occurrence when the usual Class 57 loco fails, but one for which a back-up plan is in place.

Provided Laira depot in Plymouth have a couple of spare HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power cars (Class 43s) and time to send them down to to wherever the Class 57 has failed* this is a novel solution to ensure the beds still run. The alternative is to use a normal HST set, but that then means Sleeper passengers may have to be woken up if the service fails after departure from Penzance, transferred to the HST set, they only then get a seat, and berth fares have to be refunded.

It has to be back-to-back Class 43s as they can only couple to the Class 57 from the pointy end. Coupling equipment is usually hidden out of site behind the 'First' logo on the front of the HST power cars.

Similar arrangements can be made in the other direction with spare Class 43s or a HST set from Old Oak Common.

*Last night the up Night Riviera failed at Liskeard when the GSM-R^▸ (Global System for Mobile communications - Railway.) (cab to signaller communication) in the Class 57 died. The driver took the set forward to Plymouth, communicating with the signaller on his own mobile phone. At Plymouth the back-to back Class 43s were attached, having been sent from Laira Depot. The service was around 80 minutes late by Taunton, but due to the generous timings allowed in the Working Timetable and, I suspect, some faster running (the sleeper rarely runs at line speed) it was able to make up all that time, arriving at Paddington 1 minute early!

[BerkshireBugsy]

Thanks BNM for the comprehensive reply. I seem to remember someone on here had noted this happening before.

[JayMac]

It's something that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have been doing for many years when necessity requires.

Here's a video of a 43 'double header' Sleeper, from 2006:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJYbXNy5cWQ

Regarding it being noted on this forum before....

From this post, et seq, you'll see, BerkshireBugsy, that you commented on a similar occurrence last year. 

[bobm]

Just been looking at the Real Train Times entry for last night's sleeper - http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P00039/2013/10/03/advanced - and it seems its quest to make up time was also helped by the decision to route it via Athelney rather than the planned route via Bristol.

As we have noted before the sleeper takes a range of different routes - the most common for the up service is via Bristol and Swindon, where it makes an unadvertised stop for staff.  Last night's original plan was a variation on that - still via Bristol but then through Trowbridge and onto the Berks & Hants at Westbury.

Whether the change was made to allow it to make up time or because late running got in the way of engineering work I don't know, although I note the 21:45 Paddington to Exeter service was delayed by over 45 minutes between Bristol and Taunton in the opposite direction.

[Kernow Otter]

Common place in Australia.  This one was the overnight countrylink service between Melbourne and Sydney.  Didn't get a berth, but interestingly all the seating was swing reversable recliners so that everyone got to face the direction of travel.  12 hours and not hanging around.  2 or 3 intermediate stops so lots of running at what the thing was designed for - distance at speed.

Lovely, maybe the future for FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s sleeper post IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) ?

[JayMac]

UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Class 43s are incompatible with the Mk3 Sleeper coaches, so they cannot haul the sets directly. If memory serves me correctly it's something to do with the electric supply from the loco to the carriages. Class 43s provide a  three phase electric supply direct to the Mk3 carriages in a HST^▸ (High Speed Train) set. Loco hauled Mk3s take a single phase supply from the loco and convert it to three phase by way of a motor generator under each coach.

Provided a failed Class 57 Night Riviera loco can still supply electricity to the coaches it can be hauled by the double Class 43s.

When the Mk3 Sleepers and other loco hauled Mk3s were being built it was cheaper to fit them with motor generators than it was to convert all the different loco types that would be used to haul them.

I suspect the CountryLink Class 43 derivatives (now operated by NSW TrainLink) don't have this problem and can therefore haul both day and night coaches.

[BerkshireBugsy]

Regarding it being noted on this forum before....

From this post, et seq, you'll see, BerkshireBugsy, that you commented on a similar occurrence last year. 

Thanks for reminding me BNM -  it's all coming back to me now (cue meatloaf)

[JayMac]

(cue meatloaf)

No thanks. I have a cold and consequently little appetite. 

[ROGace]

gosh it seems that in 2013 we really are running a mend and make do railway!

in the 21st century this is totally unacceptable and appalling the Govt allowed this to happen and there are no new build stock on order apart from the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) electrification units (from Hitachi in 2017/18)
local FGW^▸ (First Great Western) services will then get class 319 (old Thameslink units) to replace turbos...

HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power cars cannot pull sleeper or loco hauled mk3 coaches as they have 2 different electric systems,

half the Uk's fleet of trains cannot be coupled to other stock/loco's and such anomalies.

the class 57 loco's are as old as i am...(The HST's are old too but FGW have done a pretty good job in updating and they are the best trains to travel on but how long can they go on)

i know all of these points have been pontificated on here widely but i'm entitled to my rant lol

[Thatcham Crossing]

Re. the 319 cascade, I think you will find this is no longer the case, new EMU^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)'s will be the order of the day.

[ROGace]

re 319's

but nothing yet has been ordered?...

[Rhydgaled]

re 319's

but nothing yet has been ordered?...

Wasn't Southern asked to order a batch of new EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) for temporary use on Thameslink due to the delay in getting the Desiro City order signed off? Not sure if any further announcements have been made regarding where they will go once the Desiro City units arrive, but GreatWestern Thames Valley services were one the roumors I think.

[anthony215]

Yes the class 387 fleet. I am not too sure whether these would be from Bombardier or Seimens.

The annoucement from Seimens that they can get the class 380's to do up to 118mph does give some suspicion with the GW^▸ (Great Western) emu fleet since it would mean the local services to Newbury and Bedwyn could be worked by the emu's on the fast lines slotting in nicely between the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) services.

Depending on the numbers perhaps some of the IEP units could be freed up allowing more services to be worked by pairs of units

[paul7575]

Yes the class 387 fleet. I am not too sure whether these would be from Bombardier or Seimens.

The 387 fleet order (for temporary use on Thameslink then cascade) has already been awarded to Bombardier, back in July.  It is expected to be 110 mph capable.

In the last few years SN have awarded three batches of new trains to Bombardier, basically as agents for DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).  This was the position at the time DfT announced it, I've separated the 3 orders and added comments:

In December 2011, Southern signed a deal worth ^188 million with Bombardier for 130 carriages following an extensive procurement process which will see the trains delivered in 2013.

[26 x 5 car 377/6 units for use on inner suburban routes following 10 car platform enabling work. a few are now in service.]

An option for a further 40 vehicles was confirmed in December 2012. They will enter service in the early part of 2014 on the South London network.

[8 x 5 car dual voltage 377/7 units, for use on the WLL and elsewhere, but specifically so as to allow 8 x 4 car dual voltage units to be used on the Thameslink route.  This also releases 8 x 319s for use in the north west.]

The company ran a second open competition in December 2012 for 116 carriages, with the option of a further 140 if further investment opportunities can be identified. Bombardier was announced as the preferred bidder earlier this year, with the contract being agreed this month. [ie July 2013]

[The 116 carriage part of this order is the 387s, (reported previously as 377/8s, but that turned out to be mistaken.]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/commuters-to-benefit-from-state-of-the-art-electric-trains

There is evidence that DfT are doing plenty of background moves aimed at cascading units off Thameslink.  The only thing they haven't come out and published is that XXX will be used on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) to Newbury and Oxford etc...

However it now seems to me that what Siemens can do with the Desiro speed is only of academic interest here, especially if as expected the 387s do come to the GW^▸ (Great Western).

[4064ReadingAbbey]

I can't help feeling that there is something not quite right about the top speeds of the new-build suburban sets, regardless of who builds them.

It is often stated that one of the critical factors in line capacity on the Mains is the speed difference between the 125 mph HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) and Class 180s on the one hand and the 90 mph Turbos on the other. Assuming a 110/115 mph top speed these new build emus will narrow the gap but the Hitachi SETs^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET)) (aka IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)) are specified for a future top speed of 140 mph.

So the speed gap will open up again and we will be back to where we are now - only just a bit faster! Could it be that, for reasons of track capacity, the effective top speed of the trains between Paddington and Reading and Didcot will remain at 125 mph?