Night Riviera - merged posts, ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[phile]

Arrived only 39 late
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40039/2018/09/25/advanced

As HST^▸ (High Speed Train).   ECS^▸ (Empty Coaching Stock) 5A40 on way to Reading

[rower40]

With the questionable reliability of the class 57s, the soon-to-be-surplus HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), and the fact that the sleeper stock is Mk3, is there any mileage in the idea of top-n-tailing the sleeper with Class 43 power cars?
Electrical systems are different between sleeper and day Mk3 stock, but that can't be an insurmountable problem.  This idea does, however, prevent the re-introduction of a Plymouth portion.

[grahame]

With the questionable reliability of the class 57s, the soon-to-be-surplus HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), and the fact that the sleeper stock is Mk3, is there any mileage in the idea of top-n-tailing the sleeper with Class 43 power cars?
Electrical systems are different between sleeper and day Mk3 stock, but that can't be an insurmountable problem.  This idea does, however, prevent the re-introduction of a Plymouth portion.

I recall a discussion along these lines in the past that suggested a major problem would be the wiring of the carriages - although they're Mk3 stock, the answer was that the electrics are far too different to convert them.  Whether wiring does make it really impossible, whether that just makes it very difficult indeed, or whether it was a convenient answer to kick an option into the long grass, I don't know.

Utopia for a TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) is a standard set of stock to run all of its services.  Nightmare is having every locomotive / unit different.  The ability to reduce your stock types by one must surely be tempting.  Given as the reason the slammers were pulled from Lymington. Yet I'm amazed at the switch away from class 153 on Stourbridge Town. Even the heritage lines find the same issues - noting the South Devon Railway's delight at getting a class 25 in place of a 37 recently on the grounds of "good - we have 2 of those already" - note - link needed and my report  may be accurate only in concept.

[bobm]

With the current sleeper stock nearing the end of a refurbishment programme I doubt they would want to start re-wiring them at this point.

[grahame]

With the current sleeper stock nearing the end of a refurbishment programme I doubt they would want to start re-wiring them at this point.

Out of context - that reminds me of a fear I have about the relaying of Westbury North Junction by Network Rail - replacement of like for like when we have been screaming out for the provision of a track alongside the fourth platform.   When asked about passive provision, I'm told:

We’re not aware of any proposals to assist specifically with capacity, timekeeping or robustness of service.

and

The work at Christmas is indeed like-for-like renewal of the S&C^▸ (Settle and Carlisle ) at Westbury North

and I am, frankly, open mouthed in astonishment that "we" which is GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) are not aware of any proposals to deal with capacity.

And - here's what I suspect Bobm's thinking would be said if the replacement of 57s by 43s and associated rewiring was proposed in the near term ...

Our concern would be that we are already inconveniencing Westbury and the TransWilts significantly this Christmas, and so we would need to consider any future engineering enhancement works, balancing the short-term disruption against the benefit to GWR and passengers in the longer term.

Perhaps that's also a convenient way of diverting requests to spend money - especially when some of that could (have been) saved by doing both things at once.

They don't seem to have worried too much about taking daytime services away for 60+ days this year ... mostly to do with a neighbouring line that TransWilts passengers rarely connect to ... so I'm sure another couple of weekends to enable services to actually connect at Westbury would be accepted ...

[martyjon]

With the current sleeper stock nearing the end of a refurbishment programme I doubt they would want to start re-wiring them at this point.

Surely it is not beyond the wit of man to produce a conversion lead to convert the electrical supply wiring from an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power car to that at the other end to match the electrical supply wiring from a class 57.

I am old enough to remember when "square" pin plugs were introduced. My dad produced conversion leads with a round pin plug at one end and a "square" plug at the other when we moved from a council prefab to a new house.

[ellendune]

Yes but square and round pin plugs still had three wires with the same 240 volts (in those days) AC and Earth. albeit the structure of the wiring behind it was different.  The wiring between the two power cars of an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) carry signals that control the engines use a system to carry these signals.  I do not know if there are the same number of wires as the class 57 work on the same voltage; or even if the class 57 have any control links when two of them work a single train, but even if they similar in that respect, a complex signal sometimes means the wires have to be made in a certain way (twisted or shielded or both and of a certain thickness and with a certain specification) for the signal to reach the other end in a recognisable form. 

I am sure there are others on here who know much more about it and can give a more informed answer.

[stuving]

The big difference between HST^▸ (High Speed Train) Mk 3s and LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock) ones is the auxiliary power supply. On LHCS stock (not just Mk 3s) this is DC^▸ (Direct Current) (though they can cope with AC) at something in the range 700-1000 V. It gets converted by a motor/alternator set (originally) on each carriage to more useful supplies like 415/240 V AC and 28 V DC. In HSTs, the supply from the power car is at 415 V AC (3 phase). Since the train heating runs off the power as supplied, i.e. 750 V DC (nominal), you can't just wire one to the other. I'm assuming, in the absence of an actual document, that the sleeper stock is the same as LHCS Mk 3 day stock, apart from some updating (e.g. inverters to replace motor/generators).

Of course if you wanted to convert between these power supplies, there is no technical problem - boxes to do it are easily made these days. You'd just need to decide to do it and find the money.

[1st fan]

The Paddington - Penzance arrived 128 minutes late having left Paddington 164 minutes late. I'm assuming that this was a late inbound of the empty stock and weather related.

[ChrisB]

I heard it got stopped by a fallen tree?

[1st fan]

Depending on the severity of the winds a downed tree would probably count as weather related.

[1st fan]

The Friday night Penzance to Paddington service is delayed due to a track safety inspection. Expected to leave 225 minutes late at 01:30 and drops Totness and Newton Abbot from the stops.
This is due to a safety inspection of the track.

[TaplowGreen]

The Friday night Penzance to Paddington service is delayed due to a track safety inspection. Expected to leave 225 minutes late at 01:30 and drops Totness and Newton Abbot from the stops.
This is due to a safety inspection of the track.

Terminating at Reading 4 hours late.

[old original]

Down service terminating at Plymouth this morning

[Incider]

The big difference between HST^▸ (High Speed Train) Mk 3s and LHCS^▸ (Locomotive Hauled Coaching Stock) ones is the auxiliary power supply. On LHCS stock (not just Mk 3s) this is DC^▸ (Direct Current) (though they can cope with AC) at something in the range 700-1000 V. It gets converted by a motor/alternator set (originally) on each carriage to more useful supplies like 415/240 V AC and 28 V DC. In HSTs, the supply from the power car is at 415 V AC (3 phase). Since the train heating runs off the power as supplied, i.e. 750 V DC (nominal), you can't just wire one to the other. I'm assuming, in the absence of an actual document, that the sleeper stock is the same as LHCS Mk 3 day stock, apart from some updating (e.g. inverters to replace motor/generators).

Of course if you wanted to convert between these power supplies, there is no technical problem - boxes to do it are easily made these days. You'd just need to decide to do it and find the money.

And fit 36 way control to all the coaches, there is also an obstacle with the fire detection system and the electrical supply, the supply from an HST is variable (275v - 415v with the accompanying variation in Hz) and quite ‘dirty’ and it wasn’t deemed a viable option.