whats important to you

[whole diary]

[Btline]

And here you are saying there is no scope for frequency improvements on the Cotswold Line, yet you have on many occasions in the past advocated either booting intermediate passengers off Worcester trains at Oxford or splitting trains at Oxford, with the following stopper, or the rear portion of the train, then making the full journey through to Worcester - and the whole process being repeated in the other direction - which looks to me rather like a doubling of the frequency - and a doubling of fuel bills, train crew costs and wear and tear on the track - but then of course, so much new money will flow from Worcester that it will all pay for itself - silly me for forgetting that.

Sorry, buy your arguments are getting worse and more desperate - why try and twist an old post?

When I suggested splitting trains at Oxford, I was talking about getting a fast portion to Worcester. The section behind would continue to Worcester to cater for the Worcester market. Of course that would mean, on paper, a service doubling to Worcester - but in reality not.

As for VHF - if you want to travel at an affordable prices, you still need a timetable. And people are attracted by the journey time FAR MORE than the fact that it is 3 tph. In reality, for a 2 hour journey, 2tph/3tph is little difference. It does provide more capacity, and allows each train to miss a stop without reducing other stations' service levels.

Punctuality, fair enough - but it will take a good stint of punctuality in the 90s% before people are convinced to return to the Cotswold Line.

[willc]

My arguments are getting worse and more desperate?

I quote: ", I was talking about getting a fast portion to Worcester. The section behind would continue to Worcester to cater for the Worcester market."

Eh?

You claim I am twisting things. What I would call twisted is saying that running two trains instead of one is not a doubling of the frequency - because that is the reality, on paper and everywhere else. Unless of course, one portion went non-stop to Worcester and all the rest of us for intermediate stops were crammed into the other bit  then yes, it would only be a one train an hour frequency (except at the crock of gold and traffic magnet known as Worcester).

If speed is the only thing that matters, then given that on every major intercity route except the WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) (when it is working) and bits of XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)), trains are now slower than they were under BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)), following your logic people will have turned away from the railways, which is not the case. Flights from Manchester to London would be in rude health, not being taken off - and Concorde would have wiped the floor with jumbo jets.

And your beloved Chiltern should clearly give up on Birmingham now - because their service offer is based on nothing more than punctuality, reliability and value for money - and the nearer you get to London, ever greater frequency. On the odd occasions I use Chiltern from Bicester, I never worry about aiming for a specific train, because I know there will be another one along in a maximum of 20 minutes.

If you want to spend endless hours playing the options on journey planners to find the cheapest fare, that's up to you. Your average passenger doesn't - they just want to know that there are trains at the times they want to travel that will get them where they want to go in a reasonable time, and at the time stated, and the more options they have, the better.

And you simply won't give FGW^▸ (First Great Western) any credit for improving punctuality, will you? Overall, for the past 12 months, the High Speed Services punctuality figure is 89.8 per cent, while the figure for May was 94.3 per cent. In the Thames Valley, those figures are 90.6 and 95.4. They reflect my experience - yes, on the Cotswold Line - and, from what has been posted elsewhere, other people's FGW journeys too. How often do you actually set foot on the Cotswold Line or any other FGW trains?

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

ok the reason i set up this poll wasnt for another place to argue about this, it was to see what each individual thought without one person shouting and screaming that they are correct and everyone else is wrong, from what i can see from the poll results so far is that there doesnt seem to be a problem with getting a seat, of that that isnt a priority aslong as your on the train? there is also a mix of more frequest and faster services, unfortunatly the result of this would be in order for some of the bigger stations to get faster services the smaller stations would lose regularity, cant help but wonder what the people who belive the smaller stops should be cut out if they lived there, i think someone brought up a good point that most people dont mind if the train takes abit longer aslong as it runs to time do people agree with this?

[Mookiemoo]

i'll take the middle ground here

I PERSONALLY have not seen greater punctuality - but I admit I am cursed

i am going to start a blog and try to get a personal bad luck discount

however on a more serious note............ I am between the two stances

I do think there is a case for a 2 hour or close to sub two hour service from worcester to london - what gets missed out is up to the planners

If speed is not an issue why to virgin run the one only stop euston train to give a headline figure from brum

two hours versus 2 hors 15 can make a BIG difference - esecially when for those who work IN LONDON rather than the thames valley going to brum and then virgin to euston is cheaper (on a monthly season ticket FC^‡(resolve)) - well it was about six week ago when I checked it out

But then you get to the 15 minutes only affects regular commuters

you may not et many idiots like me but you WILL get more people commuting 2-3 times a week

[Mookiemoo]

ok the reason i set up this poll wasnt for another place to argue about this, it was to see what each individual thought without one person shouting and screaming that they are correct and everyone else is wrong, from what i can see from the poll results so far is that there doesnt seem to be a problem with getting a seat, of that that isnt a priority aslong as your on the train? there is also a mix of more frequest and faster services, unfortunatly the result of this would be in order for some of the bigger stations to get faster services the smaller stations would lose regularity, cant help but wonder what the people who belive the smaller stops should be cut out if they lived there, i think someone brought up a good point that most people dont mind if the train takes abit longer aslong as it runs to time do people agree with this?

No!

You have a market at worcester and malvern which could well travel more frequently - I know of two people who live in worcester who travel to Reading 3 times a week who drive to cheltenham because its easier than the cotswolds chugging. that just personal acquaintance.

I dont think anyone is saying have a WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line) frequency express service but yes, as I've said before - if you live in a small town you cant expect every train to stop there

If there was one quick and reliable express from the north cotwolds - north of evesham to malvern  - which only stopped at evesham, morton, one of kingham or charlbury, oxford,  reading and pad - yes I do think it would pay its way - and one in reutrn

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

so are you telling me that you would sacrifice the entitlement of a regular service to smaller stations in order to save 15 mins on your journey? how much quicker would the penzance to london be if it only stopped at plymouth exeter taunton and reading make the other people get a local to a bigger station so that i can get there 20 mins faster

[Mookiemoo]

so are you telling me that you would sacrifice the entitlement of a regular service to smaller stations in order to save 15 mins on your journey? how much quicker would the penzance to london be if it only stopped at plymouth exeter taunton and reading make the other people get a local to a bigger station so that i can get there 20 mins faster

yes I would

if I could have a service that allowed me to leave worcester at 630 , get me to london at 830 and the same in reverse - hell yes - I did it in 2004 and early 2005

the thread was - what is important to you

The probem is since may 2005 its gotten beyond a joke how much padding is there

personally id lose the padding - but then 2/5 times the train will be late so we know that is not going to happen (thats from previous experience)

fact is - if you live in morton/kingham/charlbury - you may have to change but you have more choice of trains anyway! as far as I can tell

[willc]

relex, that has always been the position of those posting here who travel from worcester, no matter that it is one of the smallest cities in England and simply cannot support the type of limited-stop services they dream about - and the service Worcester does have depends on money earned from the stations along the route, whether they like it or not.

Apart from one train a day that turns back at Moreton in mid-afternoon, everything else that stops here and places further south is through to or from Worcester, so no, we don't have more choice - we have just the same frequency as Worcester, so that's why we don't like people advocating dropping our stops to save themselves five minutes on their journeys.

None of those advocating this one super-train have ever explained what its value would be if it runs at a time that is no use whatever to them. You aren't going to use it if it gets there an hour too early or too late for you, are you?

Some of you want it to be the first from Hereford, others the next. What on earth is wrong with everything running to the same overall timing? Something that will be easier to organise in future with more double track.

And coming home, you're just going to get on the first thing going your way, not wait for a later train that is quicker but still gets you home later than the first train - saving yourself a lot more than 15 minutes.

Let the redoubling happen and see what they can manage after that, but please forget notions of dropping stops at the likes of Moreton, Charlbury and Kingham - they are far too lucrative to miss, so it will never happen. All the small stations along the way that you hate so much generate almost half as many rail journeys a year combined as Worcester.

Virgin run one quicker train a day each way so they can use that time in their adverts - just as BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) used to do between London and Birmingham way back in the 1980s.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

i must be wierd then as i would happily endure 10 mins extra to ensure some poor sod who has the misfortune to live at a smaller station gets a regular service

[Btline]

Firstly, I do appreciate the improvements in reliability. I regret I have not stated this before.

Recent Cotswold journeys have run to time (despite the odd hold up here and there) except the first off peak Turbo service, which obviously can't keep to 125 mph timings south of Didcot.

It also seems like SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening) is getting more efficient, with reduced dwells. Although ticket checking is still abysmal - not blaming the guards, it just seems like there is too much for them to be doing. It must only be the ticket barriers preventing a lot of fare dodging!

However, this thread is about importance. For Worcester people, speed of service is most important too. A service missing Pershore, Honeybourne and Hanborough on a service that arrives in London by 0830 would be used by MORE long distance business travellers - most people need to be at work by 9. If this can be achieved by a <2 hour schedule, so much for the better.

And when it comes to missing out stops - the stations have a decent service for the size of station. With any shuttle service, this will get even better. Therefore, I don't see the problem with a train missing a few stops now and then! At the moment FGW^▸ (First Great Western) can't as they can't fit in such trains with all the padding.

And wouldn't an advert from FGW highlighting 2 hour schedules to London from Worcester be a great thing for pulling passengers onto the railway. Just have some lower off peak fares as far as Oxford to get bums on (the many empty) seats!

[willc]

And when it comes to missing out stops - the stations have a decent service for the size of station. With any shuttle service, this will get even better. Therefore, I don't see the problem with a train missing a few stops now and then! At the moment FGW^▸ (First Great Western) can't as they can't fit in such trains with all the padding.

And wouldn't an advert from FGW highlighting 2 hour schedules to London from Worcester be a great thing for pulling passengers onto the railway. Just have some lower off peak fares as far as Oxford to get bums on (the many empty) seats!

Size of station (do you mean size of community served? Foregate Street is hardly 'big' as city centre stations go) Charlbury is a very small town - population about 3,000 - yet the number of train journeys it generates is massive - because rail is by far the quickest and most convenient way to and from Oxford and London. You can say the same about Moreton and Kingham (and the other places Kingham serves). The trains stop where there is money to be made - including Hanborough.

Industry Insider has ably demonstrated the difficulty of doing anything much to amend the current level of peak services, due to the tidal flows in morning and evening, so slotting in more trains at these times is hard.

As for needing to be at work by 9am - very few of the Worcester business passengers are day in, day out commuters - so I doubt they all need to be in London offices by then, witness the numbers who use the Cathedrals Express - very heavily loaded arriving at Moreton today, with barely a seat left past Kingham and full and lots standing from Charlbury into Oxford. First class was somewhere between half and two-thirds full leaving Oxford.

This is a case where maybe moving this train forward 15 minutes or so could create a slot for an extra service, reaching Oxford at 8.50, to ease the pressure on the Cathedrals Express on that section of the journey and give Hanborough another useful train into Oxford - but not be a substitute, as many people from Moreton and the West Oxfordshire stops are going all the way into London. The trick would be getting a train out to Moreton. Perhaps it could hitch a ride on the back of a slightly earlier 6.48 London-Malvern?

And moving the 8.58 from Malvern back to its old time of 8.30-8.35 and putting an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) back on it would also help, as the yawning gap in London arrivals off the Cotswold Line in the mornings (nothing from 9.47 until 11.30) is probably the worst aspect of the current timetable - many people feel they have no choice but to use the Cathedrals Express to get a decent day out in London.

And wouldn't an advert from FGW highlighting a 2hr schedule bring FGW into disrepute when people look at the timetable and realise that every other train takes five, 10 or 15 minutes longer?

No-one in Birmingham ever took that BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) sign bragging about 'London Euston in 91 minutes' or whatever it was seriously in the 1980s, because they knew that every other train took 101. The railways cannot get away with doing a Ryanair in their advertising - nor should they try it.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

so are you telling me that you would sacrifice the entitlement of a regular service to smaller stations in order to save 15 mins on your journey? how much quicker would the penzance to london be if it only stopped at plymouth exeter taunton and reading make the other people get a local to a bigger station so that i can get there 20 mins faster

yes I would

if I could have a service that allowed me to leave worcester at 630 , get me to london at 830 and the same in reverse - hell yes - I did it in 2004 and early 2005

the thread was - what is important to you

just out of interest do you live where you do in order to get a better train service

The probem is since may 2005 its gotten beyond a joke how much padding is there

personally id lose the padding - but then 2/5 times the train will be late so we know that is not going to happen (thats from previous experience)

fact is - if you live in morton/kingham/charlbury - you may have to change but you have more choice of trains anyway! as far as I can tell

[Nostalgic]

Far be it from me to intervene in a debate between experts, as a new contributor, but it does seem to me that the journey that I now make between Hereford and Paddington via Evesham on Sundays, that used to take 3:00 hours, and now takes 3:30 or more, according to engineering works, and stops at 17 stations (if a direct train), is beyond the bounds of what might be considered to be reasonable, particularly if the length of the journey at each end is taken into account. I cannot speak for all weekend commuters, but can only say that many people that I know locally have either given up coming back to Herefordshire at the weekends or have chosen to drive. I can only conclude that those responsible for drawing up time-tables have no idea what it is like to work in London from first thing Monday morning until last thing Friday evening and then take 10 hours out of the weekend to travel.  The days when I used to catch a train at Kingham 7:30am each morning and be in work in Victoria seem to be a distant memory.  But then, that was before the awful people moved in to the Cotswolds.     

[Chris from Nailsea]

Welcome to the Coffee Shop forum, Nostalgic - and thanks for your rather thought-provoking post!

[willc]

Far be it from me to intervene in a debate between experts, as a new contributor, but it does seem to me that the journey that I now make between Hereford and Paddington via Evesham on Sundays, that used to take 3:00 hours, and now takes 3:30 or more, according to engineering works, and stops at 17 stations (if a direct train), is beyond the bounds of what might be considered to be reasonable, particularly if the length of the journey at each end is taken into account. I cannot speak for all weekend commuters, but can only say that many people that I know locally have either given up coming back to Herefordshire at the weekends or have chosen to drive. I can only conclude that those responsible for drawing up time-tables have no idea what it is like to work in London from first thing Monday morning until last thing Friday evening and then take 10 hours out of the weekend to travel.  The days when I used to catch a train at Kingham 7:30am each morning and be in work in Victoria seem to be a distant memory.  But then, that was before the awful people moved in to the Cotswolds.     

I think you have made what is called a lifestyle choice - and if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) was required to provide specially-tailored services to fit in with everyone's lifestyle choices, then they would be struggling to actually operate a coherent timetable. Now that they run the entire Cotswold and Oxford service, rather than a couple of trains each way, each day, FGW have made choices about service and stopping patterns that may have extended your journey which benefit them financially by increasing the frequency and attractiveness of the service at places that generate more money than Hereford.

As with the weekday timetable, there is a chunk of padding added in recent times for reliability reasons - notably five-minute stops by virtually everything at Evesham at weekends - and quite a bit is likely to be cut post-redoubling.

There are still some nice people in the Cotswolds - though whether I count as one, I have no idea...