Have I REALLY read this rule right?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Something I noticed on another thread that worried me:

... this is section 3/1/1.2 from the ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) Ticket Examiners Handbook and National Routing Guide:

1.2
If the customer shows an out of date Railcard:
Charge the customer the undiscounted adult fare for the journey as if they had no ticket.

a) Doesn't this mean that if my MiL travels to see me over the weekend that her old people's railcard expires (so she's carrying an old and a new one) ... and accidentally shows the old one to the chap on the train on her return journey (before showing him the right one when her error is pointed out) that she should still be charged the full undiscounted adult fare even though she is already in possession of the correct ticket and card?  Or have I misread the rule?

b) Is this handbook (and rules such as this which look a bit draconian for such circumstances) available to the public so that we know what the rules are?

[moonrakerz]

Sounds a bit like when you had to take your old Road Tax disc into the Post Office to be able to buy the new one - unless you left your car at home you were committing an offence by not displaying a valid tax disc in your vehicle !

[devon_metro]

Are you not allowed a grace period similar to if you take an un MOT'd car to be MOT'd?

[Tim]

Something I noticed on another thread that worried me:

... this is section 3/1/1.2 from the ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) Ticket Examiners Handbook and National Routing Guide:

1.2
If the customer shows an out of date Railcard:
Charge the customer the undiscounted adult fare for the journey as if they had no ticket.

a) Doesn't this mean that if my MiL travels to see me over the weekend that her old people's railcard expires (so she's carrying an old and a new one) ... and accidentally shows the old one to the chap on the train on her return journey (before showing him the right one when her error is pointed out) that she should still be charged the full undiscounted adult fare even though she is already in possession of the correct ticket and card?  Or have I misread the rule?

b) Is this handbook (and rules such as this which look a bit draconian for such circumstances) available to the public so that we know what the rules are?

I think you have to apply common sense to interpretation of this.

I bet the handbook also says charge a new fare if the customer fails to show a valid ticket when asked which could be applied when the customer accidentally fishes out the return portion or the seat reservation rarther than the correct ticket.  In both cases the mistake would be pointed out and teh customer given an opertunity to put it right.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

why would you carry both? if your credit/debit card expires you dispose of it do you not?

[readytostart]

It is usualy interpeted as "If the customer is unable to show an in-date railcard" etc.

That was also my interpretation of the rule too.
Just to show how pedantic we could be check this from the same page of the handbook:
From the Senior Railcard section:
1) Checking the validity of the Railcard
To prevent the use of colour photocopies of Railcards, ALWAYS take the railcard out of the wallet and check that it is genuine ticket stock.
Always ensure the Railcard has been signed on the reverse side. If the card is unsigned, ask the customer for a document with their signature on (e.g. credit card), then ask the customer to sign the Railcard. Compare the signatures.
Check that the railcard is in date.

Also of interest are the following passages from the T&C of senior railcards:
5. You must carry your Railcard with you on your journey and when asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard. If you fail to do so, you will be required to pay the full price Standard or First Class Single fare as appropriate for your journey as if no ticket was purchased before starting the journey and in some cases a Penalty Fare. This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.

9. The Railcard does not become your property and if requested must be handed in to a representative of any Train Company.

YP railcards have an even longer list, which I'm not gonna type in, basically as above but with the addition of checking photocards, checking the photocard number matches that on the railcard etc!

The handbook (in reality a very hefty breezeblock sized folder) isn't available to the public as far as I'm aware, most of the passengers' responsibilities will be set out in the NRCOC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) with additional conditions on each railcard application form.

[John R]

Are you not allowed a grace period similar to if you take an un MOT'd car to be MOT'd?

That's not really a grace period. It's the only circumstances when you are able to drive a car without MOT on the public highway (and only if you have booked the car in for an MOT).

And why, in response to the previous post, do you need to take your VED disc in to the post office? All you need is the form, insurance (and MOT if needed). Of course you can also do it online these days. 

[Tim]

The handbook (in reality a very hefty breezeblock sized folder) isn't available to the public as far as I'm aware, most of the passengers' responsibilities will be set out in the NRCOC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) with additional conditions on each railcard application form.

Surely all of the customers responsibilities are set out in the NRCOC (the NRCOC set out miniumum passenger righst that cannot be reduced.  The handbook is just a staff instruction maual, not a set of rules with legal standing.

[readytostart]

The handbook (in reality a very hefty breezeblock sized folder) isn't available to the public as far as I'm aware, most of the passengers' responsibilities will be set out in the NRCOC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) with additional conditions on each railcard application form.

Surely all of the customers responsibilities are set out in the NRCOC (the NRCOC set out miniumum passenger righst that cannot be reduced.  The handbook is just a staff instruction maual, not a set of rules with legal standing.

The NRCOC needs a certain level of interpretation on certain issues. One quick example is the difference between having a ticket and having a valid ticket. In Scotland we're quite lucky that all internal fares, to my knowledge, are set by ScotRail and is therefore easier for staff and customers to know the restrictions (the Strathclyde area has less restrictions than for the rest of the network). I'd imagine it's quite difficult in the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) area to know if the journey you're making has ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))), AXC^» (Arriva Cross Country - about) or FGW restrictions.