ATOC - makes case for new railway lines

[whole diary]

[devon_metro]

Part of the problem with Brixham is the reversal.

Hmmmmmm...

There is a very good station at Churston, built by First Great Western originally...

That's news to me!

Quite, I had a chuckle reading this morning. 

I fear capacity would not be enough extending to Churston. A train extended to co-incide with the school next to Churston station would be useful however 

[Andy]

I'm all for reintegrating, where possible, privately owned railways into the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) system so as to allow the running of through or connecting services. However, this particular Brixham suggestion seems to me to be largely hype.

Technical difficulties aside, if anything it would seem to make more sense to allow a couple of P&D trains to run through from Kingswear to Newton Abbot at peak times, providing for a commuter service between Kingswear Brixham/Churston, Torbay and Newton Abbot.   

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

i found it amusing that the railway company that offers services between paignton and kingswear were not even consulted... makes you wonder how accurate the report is, i read it last night it even brings up bideford reducing presure at tiverton...... did they just get some darts close there eyes and throw at the map?

[devon_metro]

Never expect anything worth reading from ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies see - here). There was a piece in the paper this morning detailing how ridiculous the scheme would be, apart from running a morning commuter service. Looks like somebody has been living in cookoo land. Then again, this is ATOC we are talking about 

[Chris from Nailsea]

Again, from the Herald Express:

Steam bosses pour cold water on rail link bid

The steam railway company which runs Churston Station says it has not been consulted over new plans to reconnect the line with the mainline route to Newton Abbot.

Andrew Pooley, general manager of Paignton and Dartmouth Steam Railway, says the company has not been involved in compiling the report, which singles out the old Brixham line as one of 14 which should be reopened nationwide.  And he says the idea 'has not been thought through'.

But the Association of Train Operating Companies says it will hold detailed discussions with the steam railway if the plan goes ahead, and the heritage railway company would be 'recompensed'.

The railway operators say the service would be a direct link to Exeter and could attract 17,500 potential new rail users.
 
But Mr Pooley poured cold water on the idea: "We have not been involved in a consultation about this which is a shame because we could have saved them a lot of effort. The scheme has not been properly thought out and will cost hundreds of thousands of pounds to implement."

He is sceptical about the journey attracting enough passengers and says the reinstated line will have to operate a heavily-restricted service during the busy summer season.

The case to extend Paignton's railway line three miles to Churston has been outlined in a report by the ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies see - here) and is being backed by First Great Western. ATOC believes the cost of reinstating the line, which closed following the implementation of the Beeching Report in the 1960s, would be low because no capital outlay is involved.

But Mr Pooley says even though the rail tracks to Churston station already exist and are used and maintained by the steam railway, expensive new signals will have to be put into place. He explained: "We don't run a year-round service. We carry out track maintenance in November and then again in January through to March. Our drivers and firemen join the track gang to carry out planned maintenance during these months so a year-round service is difficult for us to accommodate with such a small workforce. There is an issue in terms of capacity during the six-week peak summer holiday service where we operate from 9.45am to 5.30pm every 45 minutes. They wouldn't be able to run a service in between because there's no time, although they could run services before and after which might be of interest to commuters. A service to Churston at 8am would be fantastic but we wouldn't want them during our running times because that would take our business away from us. They would have to invest in fairly expensive signal works which they haven't allowed for in this report, where they say the capital investment would be zero. About 10 years ago we did try to run a commuter service from Kingswear, but it wasn't supported."

A spokeswoman from ATOC said it was early days, but they had already looked at some of the issues raised by Mr Pooley. She said the association was aware some signalling costs would be involved and extra track would have to be laid for a new service. The steam railway would be 'recompensed' for use of the line when it was closed during the winter.

She added: "We are aware a commuter service was run in the past, but this would be different because it would take this route right down to Exeter, not just the shorter distance. This report is at the very early stages. We have just looked at lines we think have potential. But if we proceed there would obviously have to be detailed discussion with the heritage line as well as the local authority and Network Rail. The next stage is to look at the practicality and consider the extent of the costs involved."

[Electric train]

I think this ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies see - here) announcement has more to do with ATOC floundering in the shadow of Network Rail's lead and drive in the industry.  NR^» (Network Rail - home page) are proposing new high speed routes massive electrification of existing routes.  But if and its a big if, they can re-establish some old routes then great. 

There are a number of problems of linking NR system to heritage railways some technical but more to do with most heritage railways operation staff (signalers etc) are volunteers (nowt wrong with that and they are professional in the way they work) but they are volunteers also the signaling systems heritage railways use is fine for light rail but not so for main line operation hence speeds are limited to 25mph and the systems because they are heritage based can be labour intensive in there operation.  Nothing that can not be overcome with a bit of will and determination.

[Lee]

Some interesting photos of some of the lines mentioned in the ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies see - here) report - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8102971.stm

Greater Manchester Integrated Transport Authority has commissioned detailed research to investigate the cost of restoring train services to towns in the Irwell valley using part of the East Lancashire Railway heritage line - http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/news/story?id=5997

[eightf48544]

Re East lancs seems very vague just says they are looking at it. I wonder whther it's proposed to link by the orignal line to the tram at Bury or the new link  via Castleton which is the long way round.

I'm all for reintegrating, where possible, privately owned railways into the NR^» (Network Rail - home page) system so as to allow the running of through or connecting services. However, this particular Brixham suggestion seems to me to be largely hype.

Technical difficulties aside, if anything it would seem to make more sense to allow a couple of P&D trains to run through from Kingswear to Newton Abbot at peak times, providing for a commuter service between Kingswear Brixham/Churston, Torbay and Newton Abbot.   

On a general point of commuter trains on preserved lines with traditonal signalling I think I may have found a use for ERTMS^▸ (European Rail Traffic Management System. A future railway signalling system, with equipment located in the driver's cab, rather than at the lineside) level 3 with the Radio Block centre. 

All you'd need is a few balises on the preserved line and the commuter trains to be fitted with the appropriate equipment and they could run on the peserved line without the need for signalmen.

However when the boxes are manned it should be possible to swich the ERTMS off and the trains obey the ordinary signals.

There would have to be some kind of interlocked switch between the ERTMS and traditoinal signalling so both cannot operate at once.

Here is an aspect that I find interesting:

16 other links connecting arms of the network were considered, but as they did not provide new rail access to towns over 15,000, they were not evaluated as part of the study. The 16 were:

Bishop Stortford–Braintree–Colchester Presumably by making Stanstead airport a through station. Would give rail route from East Anglia to the airport avoinding Liverpool Street. Although trains to Colchester would need to reverse at Witham.

Burscough Curves Restores a route from Southport to Preston and gives second route to Liverpool. South curve at least to be electried for Mersey rail and restore Ormskirk as a through staion, See also proposed link to Skelmersdale.

Chessington S–Leatherhead ?

Glazebrook–Partington Doesn't this require a bridge over a large ditch?

Lewes–Uckfield Yes and electrified as diversion for Brighton Line.

Matlock–Buxton Yes but will upset Sustrans

March–Spalding Yes and 25KV as ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) relief.

Oxford–Bletchley with Manton curve:  Yes Where's the Manton curve? Manton was on the Kettering/Nottingham  line. 

Northampton–Bedford: Would need to study

Rugby-Peterborough: Presumably once again they'd pick up the Nene Valley railway at the Eastern end.

Skipton–Colne Yes

Stafford–Wellington Would need to study

Stourbridge–Walsall Part of the route is already earmarked for the West Midlands metro. But would give a South West to North east route across Birmingham, especialy with link to Sutton Park Line and proposed reopening to Brownhills.

Whelley Lines: Presumabluy a Wigan North Western  bypass

Willingdon Chord: Beds or Durham?

Woodhead Route: Undoubtably but still problem of two unconnected stations in Shefield

 

[Btline]

Basically the whole report is a load of hot air!

Nothing will happen, esp if Cameron wins the next election.

[devon_metro]

Basically the whole report is a load of hot air!

Nothing will happen, esp if Cameron wins the next election.

The Conservative led Torbay council has recently invested in 8 brand new buses.

Oh silly me, I forgot, Gordon would have invested in 80 (and put us in more debt )

[Btline]

An example from my end:

The Conservatives around my area AXED the Dial-a-ride service, which many pensioners used and relied on to get out of the house.

When asked about the cuts, a Tory councillor concerned said "we won't fund worthless services".

It was alright for them to say that; they'll never need to rely on a bus service. But to cut it was disgraceful - isolating elderly people in an area where public transport is abysmal.

Lots of rail investments will be threatened. Crossrail is an example. Yes - it'll save us money and help reduce our debt. But in the long term, just endless cuts will not help the economy.

Although on the bright side, it is nice to see a Tory policy!

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

mr brown is very good with money everyone knows all your money should go into the bank, hes just helping us by doing it for us

[devon_metro]

mr brown is very good with money everyone knows all your money should go into the bank, hes just helping us by doing it for us

 

[Timmer]

mr brown is very good with money everyone knows all your money should go into the bank, hes just helping us by doing it for us

remind me, how many banks do us taxpayers now own?

[Btline]

People should give Brown a rest. His actions over the current GLOBAL recession have been praised and copied across the world. He had the necessary vision.

There are now signs of a recovery. The FTSE is picking up for example.

Face it, if we had had Cameron/Osborne in charge over this recession, we would be in a far worse state. And it wouldn't have been Cameron leading the world at G20.

And until the recession, Brown delivered low inflation, low unemployment (NB:current level of unemployment mirror that of Tory years).

Yes he made mistakes, but he deserves far more credit than he is given.