Confiscated tickets with no receipt........is it correct?

[whole diary]

[Mookiemoo]

Mother's just been on the phone.........she has (or rather had) a dodderies rail card.   She rarely goes by train but it was worth it for the 2-3 times she came to see me.   To cut a long story short, she had to go to manchester and decided to use the train.    Bought the ticket from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) with rail card.  ticket inspector noticed it had expired a week ago!  confiscated the ticket, the rail card and excessed  her - which is fine thems the rules.

Prompted me to check mine for validity and thank god I did - it expires in a week or so.  As I never have any need to look at it (rarely checked) I wouldnt have noticed!  however I did wonder.....

Had I forgotten to renew and the same thing had happened, was there anyway not to have the ticket confiscated?  Regardless of whether it is valid for travel, it is still a valid business expense for me so can go through the company books.  Actual receipts are no good when effectively self employed - hector always wants to see the ticket or for you to provide evidence of point A or B to ensure you're not going on jollies to the seeside.    I get around this by always keeping the return portion (suitably gripped/ripped on the black strip).

But if it were confiscated as a not valid ticket, how would one provide it for evidence to hector.

Was searching for an answer to this on here that I sparked my other query - yes i'm bored!

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

same happens if you finish at a station with barriers

[Mookiemoo]

same happens if you finish at a station with barriers

No it doesnt - you speak to the gate staff who usually verify it cant be used again cos its grippped or torn and give it back to you!

[cereal_basher]

They did the right thing confiscating tickets, well would have done had the railcard been out of date as the person would have no business with it any more being an invalid ticket. I assume it also provides evidence that the person confiscating it was right, so you just have to hope the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) still have the ticket.

[Ollie]

It's probably been sent into their fraud department, if the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) has one. May be worth contacting them.

But by all rights, a ticket remains the property of the railway so well within rights to keep it.

[IndustryInsider]

same happens if you finish at a station with barriers

No it doesnt - you speak to the gate staff who usually verify it cant be used again cos its grippped or torn and give it back to you!

Well, it does. Unless you make the effort to speak to the gateline staff! If you just put it into an automatic barrier and the barrier recognises it's validity has now ceased then it stays in the machine. I think that was relex109's point?

[inspector_blakey]

Getting back to the original question, here's NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) condition 20 (with my emphasis added)

20. Withdrawal of tickets
If you do not comply in a material way with any Condition that applies to the use
of a ticket, staff or agents of any Train Company may withdraw the ticket and you
will be given a receipt. In the case of an Electronic Ticket, this may require you to
either allow the staff or agent of the Train Company to delete the stored data, or
demonstrate to them that you have done so in accordance with the conditions of
use of that ticket.

So, whilst in this situation it was perfectly correct for the staff to withdraw the ticket for investigation, they were obliged to provide a receipt which it sounds like they failed to do.

As far as retaining tickets at barriered stations goes, I have never been refused (although there has occsionally been a brief discussion following which the barrier staff have backed down); I have always been allowed to retain my ticket (suitably cancelled if this did not happen on my journey).

I suspect you'd probably be OK with a receipt issued from a STAR machine (booking office window) for the taxman, as these are very detailed and record all the details of your journey, ticket type and even serial number. However, the Scheidt&Bachmann TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and Avantix^▸ (Ticket Issuing System used on board trains) receipts are much less detailed, generally just showing something like "Travel" and the value.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

end of the day the ticket always belongs to network rail and is not a recipt it must be handed over when ever asked, a sepperate recipt may be obtained from station staff self serve machine or when booked online this recipt IS acceptable for tax return

[Mookiemoo]

end of the day the ticket always belongs to network rail and is not a recipt it must be handed over when ever asked, a sepperate recipt may be obtained from station staff self serve machine or when booked online this recipt IS acceptable for tax return

Yes it IS - but having just had an expenses investigation for 04/05 I can assure you - unless the receipt clearly says station A and station B - hector WILL ask you what each ticket was for - especially when your train expenses run to around 15K a year!  I even had to justify my season ticket to Paddington when I was working in London and virtually had to prove I wasnt using it for jollies at the weekend.

[Tim]

end of the day the ticket always belongs to network rail and is not a recipt it must be handed over when ever asked, a sepperate recipt may be obtained from station staff self serve machine or when booked online this recipt IS acceptable for tax return

The receipts are not accepted by the accounts department of my company because the jounrey taken is not shown.

How about ATOC^» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) improves the information printed on receipts - no cost to the industry but confiscation of tickets would be less of an issue and barrier staff would need to spend less time dealing with passengers wanting to keep their ticket.

[Mookiemoo]

Hi MM, just read your first post, I'm confused. Are you old enough to have a Senior Rail Card?   

Commiserations on the expenses audit, still, being an MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) has got it's down side! 

It was my MOTHER who was done for the out of date dodderies card!

I then checked my Y-P card and realised that because I hadnt looked at it for so long (its never checked) that I was within a couple of weeks of committing the same offence - the only good thing to come out of it - I will renew this weekend! 

So I was then postulating that whilst I would have to cop to the fine, how I could use my ticket to put through the company books as even though not valid for travel, its still tax deductible, if, as in the case of my mother, the guard confiscated the original ticket!

[vacman]

When a ticket is withdrawn for further investigation then a "zero fare" ticket is usually issued, as for the expenses debate, at the end of the day once the ticket is used it can be withdrawn as it does remain property of the railway, you need to get a receipt! the star receipt's are very detailed!

[Mookiemoo]

Do you have to ask specifically for a STAR receipt? Cos I've never been given a detailed receipt even when asking unless I book online

[cereal_basher]

STAR is the ticket issuing facility. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) use but only at stations that have always been FGW's, not ex-Wessex staions. If STAR isn't used you won't be able to get the detailed receipt.

[vacman]

STAR is the ticket issuing facility. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) use but only at stations that have always been FGW's, not ex-Wessex staions. If STAR isn't used you won't be able to get the detailed receipt.

FGW are swithing entirely to STAR in September, Tribute receipt's have ticket details on them I believe??