Air conditioning still not working

[whole diary]

[johoare]

I was on the 6.12 train from Paddington to Maidenhead today. It's one of the local trains (sorry don't know the correct train type), with air conditioning, which as usual wasn't working.. It was pretty hot even when sitting very very still (I tried). Luckily the train was only half full and everyone had seats.. Will the air conditioning ever be sorted out? To be honest I'm not sure air conditioning is a good idea on trains such as these, where the carriage is totally open plan, so that when the doors are open at the station (so for long periods of time at Paddington) any effects of the air conditioning are lost to the outside anyway..

[Btline]

Those trains are 166s.

The good thing about 168s, 170s and 171s is that the doors close automatically after about 20s of station dwell. Keeps the heat in in winter, and the heat out in summer!

[IndustryInsider]

The later Turbo(star) designs feature an air-con system that actually works most of the time. Best chance of the air-con improving is when the 166's get their refresh, but you'll never have a system that works very well that has windows that customers can open. It just takes one to be opened and the air-con is useless (which leads to more being opened etc.) Class 166's have doors that should shut after 60 seconds of station dwell, but that doesn't always happen.

I have to say that I don't think that enough money will be thrown at the Turbo refresh to solve the problem.

[Mookiemoo]

My turbo this morning had over enthusiastic air con - froze to death for half an hour

[Btline]

Class 166's have doors that should shut after 60 seconds of station dwell, but that doesn't always happen.

Really? I've never seen that happen!

[IndustryInsider]

Yep, really. As do the 165's. Though thinking about it, it might be 90 seconds. Though it's disabled on roughly a third of the doors it seems.

[eightf48544]

Yep, really. As do the 165's. Though thinking about it, it might be 90 seconds. Though it's disabled on roughly a third of the doors it seems.

Had it happen at Paddington waiting for departure. If I remember correctly they seem to just close without any beeping can catch people out.

Is 166 201 any better than the rest for a/c as it has different type?

[Mookiemoo]

Yep, really. As do the 165's. Though thinking about it, it might be 90 seconds. Though it's disabled on roughly a third of the doors it seems.

Had it happen at Paddington waiting for departure. If I remember correctly they seem to just close without any beeping can catch people out.

Is 166 201 any better than the rest for a/c as it has different type?

Can the interior separator doors decide to be closed or not - he number that randomly open and close

[IndustryInsider]

Had it happen at Paddington waiting for departure. If I remember correctly they seem to just close without any beeping can catch people out.

Is 166 201 any better than the rest for a/c as it has different type?

Can the interior separator doors decide to be closed or not - he number that randomly open and close

Yes, the doors just shut with no 'hassler' alarm - something I've always thought a little odd/dangerous. The air-con on 166201 has been discussed on here a couple of times, some people seem of the opinion it works better, though in my own experience it makes a hell of a noise for little or no benefit.

As for the interior doors, they can be locked open (or closed) - though lock fatigue makes this impossible to do on some of them. You can isolate the supply to them from each carriage separately, although in the case of 166's if you isolate the supply to the door leading to the next carriage, you also isolate the doors into the 1st Class section (and vice-versa). It can be very annoying if you have a set of internal doors that constantly open and close - my suggestion would be to ask the Conductor (or Driver on DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard))) to see if they can get it locked in the open position.

[smithy]

if they do not have correctly working interior doors then the A/C will be poor it simply has to work too hard same goes for the exterior doors being open at stations,add passengers opening windows then it is definatly game over.they should address doors and A/C on refresh then modify locks on windows so they can only be opened by crew like on 158's

[onthecushions]

I've never known the 166 a/c's to deliver cooling since they were built.

I suspect that the 260kW(?) engine has enough to do without driving a big compressor. The hint I had from a TT manager that it was all too undersized (at DafT insistence) to work. The Adelante's had twice the power so could get really your teeth chattering.

Another reason for overhead wires.

OTC

[Mookiemoo]

I've never known the 166 a/c's to deliver cooling since they were built.

I suspect that the 260kW(?) engine has enough to do without driving a big compressor. The hint I had from a TT manager that it was all too undersized (at DafT insistence) to work. The Adelante's had twice the power so could get really your teeth chattering.

Another reason for overhead wires.

OTC

Actually my freezing the mammaries off moment was a 165 (165 114 I believe) and I dont think they have air con come to think of it so - since none of the windows were open and the first class doors were shut - I suspect the windows were leaking

But it was ****ing freezing and the jet was coming from the vent above me - hence me thinking it was air con

[smithy]

I've never known the 166 a/c's to deliver cooling since they were built.

I suspect that the 260kW(?) engine has enough to do without driving a big compressor. The hint I had from a TT manager that it was all too undersized (at DafT insistence) to work. The Adelante's had twice the power so could get really your teeth chattering.

Another reason for overhead wires.

OTC

the perkins engine can cope with driving the A/C as it is done via a hydraulic pump the same as a 158,the problem is the old system needs updating very much like they have done with the 158 fleet of which you will find nearly all of them are now working.another thing you will notice about the 158 is internal doors work and windows are closed.
so in my opinion address all these problems and the air con will work.

[willc]

There are a couple of fundamental differences between 158s and 166s.

Firstly, the 158 was designed with a/c fitted from scratch - the 166 was an adaptation of a non-a/c train design, the 165, so the 166 system from the start had to be a bit of a lash-up job, not helped by the trains being built to a very tight budget as onthecushions hints, so it was more a case of what you could buy for the money allowed, not what was the ideal solution - ie what Chiltern has retro-fitted to its 165s.

And I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I have never seen a 158 running with the emergency ventilator windows unlocked as a matter of course, with anyone able to open them. They always need a member of the train crew to unlock them, quite different from 166s where as soon as the sun is out, someone opens those bloody hopper windows and lets in a force 10, wiping out any cooling from the a/c, even on those rare coaches where someone at Reading depot has managed to get the thing working effectively to some extent.

I'm certainly not banking on them doing anything fundamental to improve the a/c when the refresh programme happens, especially as they seem to be putting off the whole project until the last possible moment - with delivery only required by the franchise agreement by 2012. Last thing I heard on this just seemed to suggest a basic overhaul of the system and replacement of components as needed, so another 15 years of stuffy summer journeys loom.

[inspector_blakey]

I doubt the windows on 166s can be altered for "crew use only" since the units and driver-only; whereas on a 158 you have a conductor to unlock the windows when the a/c packs up, the windows on a 166 need to be operable by passengers most of whom don't carry a T-key with them! I can't see ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) being too impressed by drivers being asked to look after the passenger ventilation arrangements, so suspect the opening windows will stay.

Going back a few years the windows on 166s were very clearly marked as for opening in emergency only and the locking handles had little lead seals on them which would be broken were the window locks opened. Presumably though enough people simply opened them regardless which led to TT and subsequently FGW^▸ (First Great Western) not bothering to replace the seals any more.