The fate of LM 150s

[whole diary]

[Not from Brighton]

By the end of next year London Midland will allegedly have started replacing it's 150s on the Jewelery line through Birmingham (former GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) of course!) with new 172s.  Could these 150s be put to use augmenting some of FGWs^▸ (First Great Western) local services across the west? Does anyone know what is planned for them? They're a bit old but they have to be better than some of the rolling stock FGW currently uses and there's lots of them!

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

quids in northen get them the northwest is aloud to have a semi decent railway service

[Mookiemoo]

By the end of next year London Midland will allegedly have started replacing it's 150s on the Jewelery line through Birmingham (former GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) of course!) with new 172s.  Could these 150s be put to use augmenting some of FGWs^▸ (First Great Western) local services across the west? Does anyone know what is planned for them? They're a bit old but they have to be better than some of the rolling stock FGW currently uses and there's lots of them!

\

dont care where the 150s go - but PLEASE - replace them!

Then I have a choice over FGW!  A genuine choice

All I want is a table!

[cereal_basher]

What I have heard is that with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) now getting more 172s for the Thames Valley services as well as West services and Northern getting less 172s than first thought, FGW will get to keep all current stock except the ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) 150s and just receive a few LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) 150s, with the rest going to Northern.

[eightf48544]

But when are FGW^▸ (First Great Western) getting 172's for the Thames Valley, have they even been ordered yet?

Daft is doing a new three car trick "Search for the new DMUS."

How many TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are due 172s I read LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise), Chiltern, London Overground, FGW plus who else?

How units many is each TOC due, how many units are actually on order?

I have a feeling that the figures don't add up.

[willc]

The LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise), Chiltern and Overground orders, which are all in hand at Bombardier in Derby, are nothing to do with the further batch that is still stuck in DafT, which would involve extra stock for FGW^▸ (First Great Western), Northern and TransPennine. And yes, if they ever get ordered, then almost all the LM 150s will go to Northern.

But don't get any ideas that the LM 172s will be fitted out like Chiltern Clubmans. They will be pack-em-in suburban style, like the 150s they will replace.

[paul7575]

What I have heard is that with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) now getting more 172s for the Thames Valley services as well as West services and Northern getting less 172s than first thought, FGW will get to keep all current stock except the ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) 150s and just receive a few LM^▸ (London Midland - recent franchise) 150s, with the rest going to Northern.

Northern seem to be getting a much reduced number of new trains from the rolling stock plan now.

Fewer 172s, more 150s, and also fewer new EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), more second hand 323s (which is a complete about turn) seems to be the latest idea.

Good for FGW though, I suspect when the final analysis is done, it will all be down to the completely different economics of the SE (ie LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley)), the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line), and the NW local franchises - ie when push came to shove, Northern's finances didn't make new unit leases easily affordable.

Paul

[r james]

Presumably, if TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) get extra 172s, then the 170s which they have could move to XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) for their ex citylink servicrs???  Extra units would always be a bonus there!

[paul7575]

Presumably, if TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) get extra 172s, then the 170s which they have could move to XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) for their ex citylink servicrs???  Extra units would always be a bonus there!

Not likely at all, because the idea is to provide additional stock for TPE capacity. There is no (published) intention of a cascade out form TPE, that would not be in line with the rolling stock plan.

Paul

[eightf48544]

Confused? I suppose you could always try a Freedom Of Information request to DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) asking about new DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) provision and subsequent cascades. Whether you'd be any the wiser from the answer is not known. 

[northwesterntrains]

The rumours that are circulating in the North are all going around the Northern franchise agreement that no newly built trains are required until before 2014.

Regarding 142s/180s it is confirmed that the 3 Northern 180s will be transferred to National Express East Coast in Dec 2010 and the 142s with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are to replace them!  So that'll likely involve a reshuffle to put 4 car 156s on what are currently the 180 diagrams.  This will likely mean services like Manchester Victoria to Selby and Chester to Manchester will see more Pacers.

DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) seemed to want all the 150s to go to FGW, but then they realised that would mean Northern would need an order of new units.  Now it's rumoured all the 150s will go the other way and FGW will receive an order of new units to replace their 142s and 143s.

If you think that it is odd then you've not heard the 323 story.  In the original rolling stock plan, London Midland were to receive the Northern 323s and Northern were to receive new units to replace the 323s, then the Northern 321s were added in to be replaced as well.  Then DfT revised the rolling stock plan to say Northern will receive 'new or cascaded EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)' which led to suggestions Northern would get 313s or 315s, which wouldn't have been great on Manchester to Stoke or Leeds to Doncaster services where the line speeds exceed 100mph. The latest is now that London Midland will receive brand new EMUs and Northern will get their 323s!

[northwesterntrains]

quids in northen get them the northwest is aloud to have a semi decent railway service

I don't know if that's a serious comment or not. 

If it's not then you should try catching a peak train to or from Manchester or Liverpool and see 200 people trying to cram on a single 142, with many already waiting for the next service instead.  In general the 142s in the North West are being used on very busy commuter services not the rural low-patonage lines like in Cornwall that they were intended for, before they got banned.  Leeds has been lucky though due to West Yorks Metro involvement and got 158s for most semi fast services (such as Blackpool, Hull and Nottingham) with the 155s and 156s originally used on those services cascaded on to local services alongside 3 car 144s and a few odd 150s and 153s.

[northwesterntrains]

Presumably, if TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) get extra 172s, then the 170s which they have could move to XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) for their ex citylink servicrs???  Extra units would always be a bonus there!

TPE need extra units as a big increase in passenger demand means they will need to provide an additional Manchester to York service every hour (which will also provide a more consistent service) and that doesn't allow for overcrowding on the Manchester Airport to Cleethorphes route or the Manchester Airport to Blackpool/Cumbria/Scotland services.

[vacman]

quids in northen get them the northwest is aloud to have a semi decent railway service

  In general the 142s in the North West are being used on very busy commuter services not the rural low-patonage lines like in Cornwall that they were intended for, before they got banned. 

Obviously you've never travelled on any of our branch lines at any point between easter and the end of October then? in this part of the world most of the branches are actually very busy commuter routes during the peaks then even busier routes full of holiday makers and day trippers during the "off-peak" (off-peak generally full and standing on routes such as St Ives, Falmouth, Newquay and between Exeter-Dawlish and Paignton!)

[eightf48544]

The rumours that are circulating in the North are all going around the Northern franchise agreement that no newly built trains are required until before 2014.

Regarding 142s/180s it is confirmed that the 3 Northern 180s will be transferred to National Express East Coast in Dec 2010 and the 142s with FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are to replace them!  So that'll likely involve a reshuffle to put 4 car 156s on what are currently the 180 diagrams.  This will likely mean services like Manchester Victoria to Selby and Chester to Manchester will see more Pacers.

DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) seemed to want all the 150s to go to FGW, but then they realised that would mean Northern would need an order of new units.  Now it's rumoured all the 150s will go the other way and FGW will receive an order of new units to replace their 142s and 143s.

If you think that it is odd then you've not heard the 323 story.  In the original rolling stock plan, London Midland were to receive the Northern 323s and Northern were to receive new units to replace the 323s, then the Northern 321s were added in to be replaced as well.  Then DfT revised the rolling stock plan to say Northern will receive 'new or cascaded EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit)' which led to suggestions Northern would get 313s or 315s, which wouldn't have been great on Manchester to Stoke or Leeds to Doncaster services where the line speeds exceed 100mph. The latest is now that London Midland will receive brand new EMUs and Northern will get their 323s!

Well I think this says it all you couldn't make it up, nobody would believe you.

Official; rolling stock procurement is total mess.