Fare Evasion

[whole diary]

[Mookiemoo]

Just to emphaise the point:

Customer shows up with

(1) off peak first fare to slough - valid after 1915
(2) first class season to oxford
(3) first class season to worcester
(4) Wants to board the 1922 to hereford via worcester

do you:
a. assume passenger is trying to get to slough using an off peak ticket
b. join the dots

I'd have you arrested as a ticket tout. 

Maybe I am missing something? I do have a great deal of sympathy for those passengers that are treated harshly to protect the company from those that are trying to defraud FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (which includes many cases of first class season ticket fraud over the years). But why didn't you just show your season ticket? It's valid on any train to any destination that's en-route, so you could have said you wanted to break your journey at Reading and wanted to catch the fast train to Reading? At that time of night surely something else was advertised on Platforms 2-5?

Or failing that wander up platforms 1 or 8 and walk up the overbridge and try again - most often there's nobody up there checking tickets at all!

Or failing that give up and wander back to MacDonalds and eat the meal in one of the seats that you've just purchased your meal from?

Because my season ticket only goes to slough - hence the purchase of the additional off peak to get me into London so I could pick up something left in a hotel for me by a friend.  Did they not put ticket barriers on the over bridge cos I have to admit that is what I used to do

[IndustryInsider]

Because my season ticket only goes to slough - hence the purchase of the additional off peak to get me into London so I could pick up something left in a hotel for me by a friend.  Did they not put ticket barriers on the over bridge cos I have to admit that is what I used to do

Oh, OK that makes more sense then! They have put ticket barriers on the overbridge but they are rarely staffed - though it seems that they have started to get their act together on that front the last few weeks. The staff on the overbridge are far less hassled than those at the main gates - and (if there was anybody on duty there) you would probably have had more time to explain your (unusual, but not unheard of) situation to them, so you may have got a more sympathetic hearing.

As for the advertising of departures. I presume Gateline staff are told not to advertise or confirm a platform until it has been officially advertised. Even a small trickle of passengers trying to join a train whilst it is being cleaned, tanked and labelled up hinders the speed at which that can be completed. With tight turnarounds that can easily lead to delays. That's without any last minute changes that (albeit rarely) can cause train diagrams to be changed - even when labelled up and ready to go.

I said that I fully sympathise with customers with genuine issues that are not dealt with fairly, but it's a difficult job on the barriers. It's a poorly paid job, attracting a lot of people for whom English is not their first language. So after eight hours of checking tickets, dealing with complaints, constant excuses, and all too frequently being told downright lies - I could imagine their judgement as to what is fairest for the customer sometimes goes a little awry!

[Tim]

[quote author=IndustryInsider link=topic=4629.msg41212#msg41212 , it's a difficult job on the barriers. It's a poorly paid job, attracting a lot of people for whom English is not their first language. So after eight hours of checking tickets, dealing with complaints, constant excuses, and all too frequently being told downright lies - I could imagine their judgement as to what is fairest for the customer sometimes goes a little awry!
[/quote]

Another reason why on-train checking by better trained and better paid staff is my preference.

I would like to bet that noone has ever got away with dodging a fare on the Heathrow Express.  Even though there are no barriers and the journey is only 10 to 15 minutes long, the  on-train staff are so efficient that every ticket gets checked every time.  In an ideal world I would like to see that on all FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s trains and the barriers removed.   If this means employing more on-train staff then that is what should be done.  There must be a good 40 to 50 staff employed at barriers between Paddington and Bristol.  If you replaced them with 30 extra travelling ticket inspectors and a few extra BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) officers on twice the wage (paid for by getting rid of the barrier staff and cancelling the barrier maintenace contract) you could get one or two extra ticket inspectors on every single train for at least part of the journey.  Evasion could still be tackled but passengers would be happier, door to door journsy would be quicker and trains would be safer because of more staff on trains

[Btline]

I disagree - barriers should enhance ticket checks. Because guards should be able to get through the train a lot quicker (selling fewer tickets, as people have had to buy before) - checking the whole train before the next stop.

With the advent of the Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) Card, and the gradual National uptake of "Smartcard Ticketing", barriers will become less of a strain. Look at commuters on the Underground - tap in, tap out - you hardly need to slow down!

[vacman]

[quote author=IndustryInsider link=topic=4629.msg41212#msg41212 , it's a difficult job on the barriers. It's a poorly paid job, attracting a lot of people for whom English is not their first language. So after eight hours of checking tickets, dealing with complaints, constant excuses, and all too frequently being told downright lies - I could imagine their judgement as to what is fairest for the customer sometimes goes a little awry!

Another reason why on-train checking by better trained and better paid staff is my preference.

I would like to bet that noone has ever got away with dodging a fare on the Heathrow Express.  Even though there are no barriers and the journey is only 10 to 15 minutes long, the  on-train staff are so efficient that every ticket gets checked every time.  In an ideal world I would like to see that on all FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s trains and the barriers removed.   If this means employing more on-train staff then that is what should be done.  There must be a good 40 to 50 staff employed at barriers between Paddington and Bristol.  If you replaced them with 30 extra travelling ticket inspectors and a few extra BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) officers on twice the wage (paid for by getting rid of the barrier staff and cancelling the barrier maintenace contract) you could get one or two extra ticket inspectors on every single train for at least part of the journey.  Evasion could still be tackled but passengers would be happier, door to door journsy would be quicker and trains would be safer because of more staff on trains
[/quote]heathrow express is easy to do as only very few ticket types and not 8 coaches full and standing!

[Mookiemoo]

Just heard a good one tonight - guy sitting in FC^‡(resolve) with a standard ticket claiming he had no choice to sit there because coach E was in the wrong place and he couldnt be expected to invest the effort in learning an alphabet that is different to the alphabet used by the rest of the world.  Then demanded the TM^‡(resolve) clear the aisles for him as he couldnt be expected to move people of the way to get to carriage E now he's on the train!

Provided some degree of humourous entertainment to the rest of us!  Nice try, no cigar

[IndustryInsider]

What a pillock. And I'm sure we've all got similar tales of idiocy that we've encountered over the years.

[thetrout]

What a pillock. And I'm sure we've all got similar tales of idiocy that we've encountered over the years.

I have a few, I'm probably going to get shot down for this, but I think those tales are what keeps the whole "commuting" experience sane

[Tim]

heathrow express is easy to do as only very few ticket types and not 8 coaches full and standing!

I take the point but isn't this an argument for simplying ticket types and not that many HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) trains are 8 coaches of full and standing

[vacman]

heathrow express is easy to do as only very few ticket types and not 8 coaches full and standing!

I take the point but isn't this an argument for simplying ticket types and not that many HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) trains are 8 coaches of full and standing

Tell you what, why don't you try working an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) out of Pad and seeing how easy it is, don't forget it's not just tickets when your walking through, you've got people asking questions about the buffet, connections, moaning about weather and you always get the one who just wants to tell you their life story....then tell you they've got no money! and before you know it you've only done two coaches and...Reading, so then your announcement and the correct position to release the doors..... Barriers are a god send and it's suprising aswell how many people don't think to just buy a ticket to th next stop and when they see barriers they buy their correct ticket.

[grahame]

Tell you what, why don't you try working an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) out of Pad and seeing how easy it is ....

There's many a true word spoken 'in jest'.  That sounds like a really excellent idea - to have a customer / customer representative shadow a train manager and see it from all sides, and report back. 

Isn't this the sort of thing that the customer panel is supposed to get involved with?  Has it ever been done?  And if so, are there any customer panel reports / comments that we could reproduce here, or customer panel members who would care to write it up for all the members and guests here?

[Tim]

I disagree - barriers should enhance ticket checks. Because guards should be able to get through the train a lot quicker (selling fewer tickets, as people have had to buy before) - checking the whole train before the next stop.

That makes sense in theory but in my experience it doesn't work in practise.  My most frequent peaktime journey is Bath - London.  Eight years ago you could board without a ticket and buy on the train.  A handfull of people on each coach did this every morning and everyone was checked every morning.  Nowadays you get checked perhaps 60% of the time.  I know that there are more passengers than 8 years ago, but we also have gates and fewer on board purchases so in theory the guard could move more quickly.  I don't know enough about why onboard checks have deteriorated so I won't jump to the conclusion that it is lazy guards because that could well be wrong as well as offensive to well-motivated staff. 

All I will say is that I have the suspicion that if there were no barriers, on train checks would be better than they currently are (they would have to be in order to prevent huge loss of revenue).  Therefore I conclude that the errection of barriers have reduced the number on on-train checks something which makes me anti-barrier in general. 

Vacman,  I wasn't saying that checking all tickets on a full HST^▸ (High Speed Train) was an easy job.  My earlier post made the suggestion that if the job was too much for the Guard, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) should employ extra on-train ticket checkers. 

barriers make sense at some stations but they are not a panacea, something the Transport Select committe agrees with

See http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmtran/84/8406.htm

 

[welshman]

I travelled from Cardiff to BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)) and back on Friday.  I went mid morning and came back mid evening.

The BTM bound guard/TM^‡(resolve)/whatever they're called this week made several ticket checks allowing for the fact that there are unbarriered stations on the journey. Not only that but he insisted on checking the passes as well as the tickets.  He was wandering down the aisle saying "Tickets and passes, please."

On the way back I was in the rear carriage of 3 of a 158 set. Despite the fact there was on and off at every station the TM didn't budge from her seat and when I got off at Cardiff Central she was already hanging out the door with her case in her hand.  The train was less than one third full I judge.  Certainly no-one was standing, including her obviously. 

[Btline]

Barriers are a god send and it's suprising aswell how many people don't think to just buy a ticket to th next stop and when they see barriers they buy their correct ticket.

I agree. If there are barriers, it:

(a) Forces the people who can't be bothered to queue, or those in a hurry, or simply those who forget to buy a ticket. Most of these people are law abiding, and pay the full fare. Result, less ticket selling on the train. Better checks.

(b) Gives fare dodgers a (perhaps false) sense of high ticket checking, so they are put off and pay the full fare.

(c) Improves security at the station, and can be used for passenger counts/ overcrowding figures (a la London Midland).

I think all major stations should have barriers, and "staff barriers" should appear at other stations at random times, as well as RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) on trains.

[Mookiemoo]

Barriers are a god send and it's suprising aswell how many people don't think to just buy a ticket to th next stop and when they see barriers they buy their correct ticket.

(a) Forces the people who can't be bothered to queue, or those in a hurry, or simply those who forget to buy a ticket. Most of these people are law abiding, and pay the full fare. Result, less ticket selling on the train. Better checks.

Or - forces law abiding people who are held up who are wanting to pay to miss their train because they are running late and cant queue and the barriers do not let them through

In a previous life when I cycled from egham to slough, I missed the train a few times because the ticket was in my back pack, the train was on the platform, and I had to stop to fish it out

A few times in the last three weeks, if I hadnt had the season going one way, id have missed the train going the way I wanted to go (this will be resolved when I renew my season on the 26th)