Fare Evasion

[whole diary]

[vacman]

A nation of non-complainers? you should be a comedien grahame!!! Try working on the railway for a week and you'll soon change that opinion!

[Super Guard]

A nation of non-complainers? you should be a comedien grahame!!! Try working on the railway for a week and you'll soon change that opinion!

While I understand Grahame's point about Paddington and the rush when the train is announced/displayed, the non-complainer line did make me smile 

[Mookiemoo]

Why dont you wait like 99.9999999999% of the other customers who wait until the train is anounced and then board.

I agree with Mookiemoo and Grahame on this one.. my experience at Paddington is that my train in the platform was always at least a quarter full before the platform was announced (the next slightly less brave quarter of people were standing as close to the barriers to the platform as they could get).. Those that chose to assume it would go from the same platform as always, also chose to risk being on the wrong train.. Much better than the sprint to the train when it was finally announced...

and here is the thing - I specifically asked for the diagram workings - so not only does there have to be a change of platform but a complete change of set working.

again - I know this happens - usually due to train failure or something getting stuck somewhere - I am not thick or stupid by any means. 

however, the chances of both a platform change and a diagram change?

Go on - how many times out of 10 does it happen?  Honestly?  I can happen, and whilst I am quick to complain I am also quick to accept responsibility for my own doings.  I was doing the same long before I found here (learning as much as I could to improve my odds of a good journey) - I just didnt know abotu diagrams such like - so I have ried to educate myself to improve my odds. 

Question to the detractors - how many times does an incoming diagram for a hereford service get swapped so last minute the stickers are in the window when it happens?

I await an answer but suspect I wont get one

[super tm]

Many of the lower numbered platforms are occupied by terminating HST^▸ (High Speed Train) trains slightly earlier in the night.  It may also depend when the stock actually arrives in Paddington as to what platfroms are available at that time.  It may arrive quite a bit earlier when more platforms are occupied.

Going back to the previous post about trains on the relief lines terminating at the high numbered platforms.  

1.  The left hand side of the station (platforms 11 - 14) is the same side as the slow lines out of paddington.  Using these cuts down on conflicting moves during the day

2.  There may occasionally be lower numbered platforms available.  However if there are any spares during the day they need to be kept free in case there is a problem with an HST or  Heathrow.  These trains cannot go into the higher numbered platforms.  It is no good if platform 14 is free and a 3 car turbo is on platform 8.  Shorter trains will always be put into shorter platforms

[johoare]

Many of the lower numbered platforms are occupied by terminating HST^▸ (High Speed Train) trains slightly earlier in the night.  It may also depend when the stock actually arrives in Paddington as to what platfroms are available at that time.  It may arrive quite a bit earlier when more platforms are occupied.

Going back to the previous post about trains on the relief lines terminating at the high numbered platforms.  

1.  The left hand side of the station (platforms 11 - 14) is the same side as the slow lines out of paddington.  Using these cuts down on conflicting moves during the day

2.  There may occasionally be lower numbered platforms available.  However if there are any spares during the day they need to be kept free in case there is a problem with an HST or  Heathrow.  These trains cannot go into the higher numbered platforms.  It is no good if platform 14 is free and a 3 car turbo is on platform 8.  Shorter trains will always be put into shorter platforms

all this is just fine.. but I do think for platforms 13 and 14 that they need to advertise the time that you need to be through the ticket barrier (or some such system)... And make sure they police that... So if you are through you can get the train even if you are a bit slower than other people..

 Nearly every time I have travelled from these platforms, I have seen elderly or less abled people looking paniced attempting to hurry to the train that is quite a lot further away than they thought it would be... Some of them also then end up missing the train and having the long walk back to the concourse to see if they need to then do the same thing for the next train or not..

Also quite often platforms 9, 10, 11 and 12 (or some of them) are empty whilst people are rushing for platform 13 or 14...

[Tickets Please]

Why dont you wait like 99.9999999999% of the other customers who wait until the train is anounced and then board.

I await an answer but suspect I wont get one

to be honest I think a lot of it is the way you seem to think that people just go out of their way to upset you or be difficult towards you. You call them jobsworths. I call them people who are doing the job the way they are instructed to do it. Now you might not agree, or understand why or think you could do a better job or manage the process better but its just your premiss that your way is the right way that rubs.

Do you consider that for every person like yourself who will go thru with an off peak ticket before the time it is valid and mean what they say when they state "dont worry I am not going to travel earlier than allowed, I am going to sit on the empty train and await its departure" there are many many many more who will attempt to go thru and use just that reason as an exscuse to go past the gateline staff and wander off on their merry way onto a peak train with an off peak ticket, maybe on an adjacent platform.

Guess what those people will say to the TM^‡(resolve) or Senior Conductor when challanged about their ticket being invalid - yes that well used phrase "the man let me through" etc etc etc

There are usually good reasons why rules and restrictions exist, the man was quite right to prevent you coming through with an off peak ticket before the peak time restriction lifted.....you might not like it or agree with it or want to sit down and eat or ensure you get a seat before the rush......but he isnt wrong for doing his job correctly.

[Tickets Please]

Why dont you wait like 99.9999999999% of the other customers who wait until the train is anounced and then board.

I agree with Mookiemoo and Grahame on this one.. my experience at Paddington is that my train in the platform was always at least a quarter full before the platform was announced (the next slightly less brave quarter of people were standing as close to the barriers to the platform as they could get).. Those that chose to assume it would go from the same platform as always, also chose to risk being on the wrong train.. Much better than the sprint to the train when it was finally announced...

and here is the thing - I specifically asked for the diagram workings - so not only does there have to be a change of platform but a complete change of set working.

again - I know this happens - usually due to train failure or something getting stuck somewhere - I am not thick or stupid by any means. 

however, the chances of both a platform change and a diagram change?

Go on - how many times out of 10 does it happen?  Honestly?  I can happen, and whilst I am quick to complain I am also quick to accept responsibility for my own doings.  I was doing the same long before I found here (learning as much as I could to improve my odds of a good journey) - I just didnt know abotu diagrams such like - so I have ried to educate myself to improve my odds. 

Question to the detractors - how many times does an incoming diagram for a hereford service get swapped so last minute the stickers are in the window when it happens?

I await an answer but suspect I wont get one

to be honest I think a lot of it is the way you seem to think that people just go out of their way to upset you or be difficult towards you. You call them jobsworths. I call them people who are doing the job the way they are instructed to do it. Now you might not agree, or understand why or think you could do a better job or manage the process better but its just your premiss that your way is the right way that rubs.

Do you consider that for every person like yourself who will go thru with an off peak ticket before the time it is valid and mean what they say when they state "dont worry I am not going to travel earlier than allowed, I am going to sit on the empty train and await its departure" there are many many many more who will attempt to go thru and use just that reason as an exscuse to go past the gateline staff and wander off on their merry way onto a peak train with an off peak ticket, maybe on an adjacent platform.

Guess what those people will say to the TM^‡(resolve) or Senior Conductor when challanged about their ticket being invalid - yes that well used phrase "the man let me through" etc etc etc

There are usually good reasons why rules and restrictions exist, the man was quite right to prevent you coming through with an off peak ticket before the peak time restriction lifted.....you might not like it or agree with it or want to sit down and eat or ensure you get a seat before the rush......but he isnt wrong for doing his job correctly.

[johoare]

There are usually good reasons why rules and restrictions exist, the man was quite right to prevent you coming through with an off peak ticket before the peak time restriction lifted.....you might not like it or agree with it or want to sit down and eat or ensure you get a seat before the rush......but he isnt wrong for doing his job correctly.

Just out of interest.. do you happen to know how long before the peak time restriction is lifted that people are actually allowed through the barriers... As obviously it takes a bit of time to get to a train from the barriers, even if it happens to be close by? So for example, if it were a 9.32 train and restrictions were lifted at 9.30 and (as an example) the train was on platform 13 at Paddington.. would they not be let through the barriers until 9.30 which would be too late to get the train? 

[Mookiemoo]

Why dont you wait like 99.9999999999% of the other customers who wait until the train is anounced and then board.

I agree with Mookiemoo and Grahame on this one.. my experience at Paddington is that my train in the platform was always at least a quarter full before the platform was announced (the next slightly less brave quarter of people were standing as close to the barriers to the platform as they could get).. Those that chose to assume it would go from the same platform as always, also chose to risk being on the wrong train.. Much better than the sprint to the train when it was finally announced...

and here is the thing - I specifically asked for the diagram workings - so not only does there have to be a change of platform but a complete change of set working.

again - I know this happens - usually due to train failure or something getting stuck somewhere - I am not thick or stupid by any means. 

however, the chances of both a platform change and a diagram change?

Go on - how many times out of 10 does it happen?  Honestly?  I can happen, and whilst I am quick to complain I am also quick to accept responsibility for my own doings.  I was doing the same long before I found here (learning as much as I could to improve my odds of a good journey) - I just didnt know abotu diagrams such like - so I have ried to educate myself to improve my odds. 

Question to the detractors - how many times does an incoming diagram for a hereford service get swapped so last minute the stickers are in the window when it happens?

I await an answer but suspect I wont get one

to be honest I think a lot of it is the way you seem to think that people just go out of their way to upset you or be difficult towards you. You call them jobsworths. I call them people who are doing the job the way they are instructed to do it. Now you might not agree, or understand why or think you could do a better job or manage the process better but its just your premiss that your way is the right way that rubs.

Do you consider that for every person like yourself who will go thru with an off peak ticket before the time it is valid and mean what they say when they state "dont worry I am not going to travel earlier than allowed, I am going to sit on the empty train and await its departure" there are many many many more who will attempt to go thru and use just that reason as an exscuse to go past the gateline staff and wander off on their merry way onto a peak train with an off peak ticket, maybe on an adjacent platform.

Guess what those people will say to the TM^‡(resolve) or Senior Conductor when challanged about their ticket being invalid - yes that well used phrase "the man let me through" etc etc etc

There are usually good reasons why rules and restrictions exist, the man was quite right to prevent you coming through with an off peak ticket before the peak time restriction lifted.....you might not like it or agree with it or want to sit down and eat or ensure you get a seat before the rush......but he isnt wrong for doing his job correctly.

No - "the way you seem to think that people just go out of their way to upset you or be difficult towards you."   - I dislke the assumption I am guilty until proven innocent.  Same way on principle I will not use a petrol station that asks me to pay up front or leave my credit card if I am filling up.  (1) they are assuming I am going to drive off and (2) they dont like it when I refuse to leave my card out of my sight because I assume they are going to skim it as im filling up.  I know day in day out you get the hardened scrotes but I will attest most customers are not trying to evade fares.  (YP card an exception ...... lets not go there on this thread again since FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are usuallyt not the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) losing out)



"Do you consider that for every person like yourself who will go thru with an off peak ticket before the time it is valid and mean what they say when they state "dont worry I am not going to travel earlier than allowed, I am going to sit on the empty train and await its departure" - I agree - if they just proffered a ticket to slough or reading however I was proffering not only a ticket to slough but a season to worcester in addition and pointing out I am joining the train on 3 going to worcester!.  If I had just been proffering a ticket to slough or reading - I completely applaud their stance!  It that lack of common sense and joined up thinking that I find irritating.

Maybe I just assume that human being are not drones .......... I often go against client policy - if I can defend it - did today - told them they could tear up one of their procedures as it was not giving them any benefit.  And in the above situation if thats policy, it doesnt need to be torn up - but maybe it needs better staff training or, god forbid, staff of the quality that the judgement can be trusted.

99% of Tm's CH's etc I believe act correctly with judgement.   The reason I put up with FGW is i like the staff - but sometimes they just stick their foot in it and keep digging

[Mookiemoo]

Just to emphaise the point:

Customer shows up with

(1) off peak first fare to slough - valid after 1915
(2) first class season to oxford
(3) first class season to worcester
(4) Wants to board the 1922 to hereford via worcester

do you:
a. assume passenger is trying to get to slough using an off peak ticket
b. join the dots

I suspect many people will say the rule book needs to be adapted for - yes I hate to use the word - discretion. 

[grahame]

A nation of non-complainers? you should be a comedien grahame!!! Try working on the railway for a week and you'll soon change that opinion!

While I understand Grahame's point about Paddington and the rush when the train is announced/displayed, the non-complainer line did make me smile 

You gents will naturally see / hear from / spend longer with the people who do complain and may overlook the high proportion who (still) put up with more than they should.

Janet is a complainer, and Peter and Mary accept their lot.   So you have 33% complainers.  But I spend 9 minutes  48 seconds with Janet sorting out her complaint yesterday ... and 6 seconds just 'checking Peter's ticket' and 6 seconds checking Mary's.   98% of my time was spent with complainers, and I got a view that the world is full of complainers, but in fact it's only a minority ...

A well known organisation spoke to all the travellers on both the 06:15 and the 18:45 train from Swindon to West Wiltshire, and asked the passengers whether the train time was good for them.   And of the few passengers on board (very few indeed on the 06:15), they got a positive response ... after all, those people were there to use the train at that time, so it must have been OK for them.   They then drew the conclusion (flawed, I think) that because most of their time had been spent talking to people who said "the service times are OK" that the service times truely were OK (and so an appropriate total service for the route!), rather that doing the right thing which would be to include in their survey all the people who would use such a service if only it were timed better for them.

It's amazing what incorrect conclusions can be reached with skewed data!

The real answer to "what do people think of the system at Paddington" would be to ask a fair an representative proportion of people who use it.  I asked here (about 24 hours ago?) whether there has been any such customer research, but I've yet to see an answer and I suspect that there may not be one forthcoming ...

[Tim]

I can't recall there being a "please pay ont he train" sign

The West Highland line has them (not on a separate sign, but the "welcome to Station X" notice says something like, "there are no ticketting factilities at this station - please buy your ticket from the  conductor on the train")


Edited to help rendering your message which had a bad quote tag - Graham

[Tim]

Ok, I had  CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) - full first class fir, no YP discount as I was at Slough in plenty of time to get ticket.  Got the 1732 - had to make a wee trip to Gloucester road so intended to get the 1922 home - which I did.  Saw the incoming OXF^» (Oxford - next trains) train arrive on its booked platform on Plat 3 so I thought, great - trains here.  Went to McD's (didnt get a chance to get lunch - was hungry - am ashamed) bought dinner - intention - get on train, chow down, settle down to work.

Except - at 1902 the ticket wouldnt let me through the barrier. Explained to gate staff I was going to Worcester - showed them my season, explained it left at 1922 so ticket was valid - no joy.  REfused to let me through the barrier because the train wasnt "announced"  - I knew and they knew it was the train.  The cleaning crew were leaving.

Dilemma - McD's getting cold - refuse to eat cold McD's and refuse to eat it with bags hanging off me on a platform!  Choice - go to ticket machine - buy an any time single to get through the barrier or let dinner go cold.

Jobsworth was not going to back down - FGW^▸ (First Great Western) got an extra 7.90 out of me.  McD's was revolting - but less revolting than cold McD's.

So - were the barrier staff being jobsworths or not? 

I say yes.

i completely agree with you on this.  The root cause is that ticket barriers are not perfect and can't tell which train you will board once you are through them.  The sensible solution would be to give people the benefit of the doubt and for the barriers to let people through say 30 minutes before the ticket is valid and catch the cheats with onboad checks.

I know I have said this before, but ticket barriers and automatic ones especially are not perfect and they may have a role in preventing fare evasion but they are not an subsitute for good on board checks.  It seems to me that TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) are installing barriers not because they are the best solution to ticketless travel but because they are the easiest solution (and they are highly visible so it makes them look like they are taking the problem seriously).  it is much easier for a TOC to manage staff at stations than on board a train to make sure they do their ticket checks.  Its cheaper to employ barrier staff than on train staff. 

I am anti-barriers at most stations and the main reason is that once they are installed the quality of onboard checking always seems to fall.  Honest customers get annoyed by two things in relation to ticket checking.  They generally don't like barriers if they hold them up but conversely they don't like not being checked on board.   

[IndustryInsider]

Just to emphaise the point:

Customer shows up with

(1) off peak first fare to slough - valid after 1915
(2) first class season to oxford
(3) first class season to worcester
(4) Wants to board the 1922 to hereford via worcester

do you:
a. assume passenger is trying to get to slough using an off peak ticket
b. join the dots

I'd have you arrested as a ticket tout. 

Maybe I am missing something? I do have a great deal of sympathy for those passengers that are treated harshly to protect the company from those that are trying to defraud FGW^▸ (First Great Western) (which includes many cases of first class season ticket fraud over the years). But why didn't you just show your season ticket? It's valid on any train to any destination that's en-route, so you could have said you wanted to break your journey at Reading and wanted to catch the fast train to Reading? At that time of night surely something else was advertised on Platforms 2-5?

Or failing that wander up platforms 1 or 8 and walk up the overbridge and try again - most often there's nobody up there checking tickets at all!

Or failing that give up and wander back to MacDonalds and eat the meal in one of the seats that you've just purchased your meal from?

[grahame]

I have just deleted a post that I considered to be a personal attack by one member on another; this action was taken during a very brief break from my work, and further action (including perhaps requesting the member who's post I removed to explian why he posted in the way he did) when I get a chance, which may be late tonight.

In the meantime, please remember the forum agreement.  If in doubt, read it again. And if still in doubt, don't post!

Added, 24 hours later:

Explanation (and advise) at
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=4652.0