Fare Evasion

[whole diary]

[grahame]

However, the hard and fast rule is NCOC's state, board at a station where you had an opportunity to buy then expect to pay full fare with no discount.

That IS clear to me.

It's the opposite case that's in question - I had always understood that it was acceptable / legal for me to join a train at a station where there was no manned ticket office, and no ticket machine, then buy a ticket on the train at the earliest possible opportunity.  However, we have now been told by an FGW^▸ (First Great Western) employee on this forum that the official line is that it's an offense to join a train without a ticket anywhere except at a station which is not manned and which also has a ticket machine that is not working. This is somewhat of a surprise to me ... but only somewhat of a surprise, as road replacement services have refused to pick up unticketed people on (rare) occasions in the past.

I remain unclear, since the post of the official line here the other day, as to whether I may (still / could I ever?) legitimately board a train or replacement bus or taxi at a station with no staff and no ticket machine, without a ticket, then pay on the train / bus / taxi, or collect your prepaid, advanced purchase ticket that starts there from the conductor.

[paul7575]

The Railway Byelaws are the actual current legal rules covering ticketless travel. I believe they are less ambiguous than anything else referred to so far, such as CofC or some railcard T&C.  The only odd thing about them seems to be that the rules in 'Compulsory Ticket areas' come before the 'normal rules' IYSWIM, and of course Penalty fares are covered elsewhere and are additional to the byelaws:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/regs/railwaysbyelaws.pdf

17. Compulsory Ticket Areas
(1) No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.
18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.
(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
16
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or
(ii) there was a notice at the station where he began his journey permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket; or
(iii) an authorised person gave him permission to travel without a valid ticket.

Paul

[Phil]

Then he is unable to buy a ticket at his station and may board without a ticket - which is what I thought I had said!

I was going to let this pass but I do feel I have to explain what I was getting at. What you actually said was, and I quote,

[you must buy a ticket at your starting station if you are able to do so] from a ticket office if it is open, or a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) if it is working.

- and the point I was trying to make was that this only describes two out of the three possible scenarios: a ticket office if it is open or a TVM if it is working. What you didn't mention specifically are stations where no TVM has ever been installed, a fact which has been brought out by subsequent posts as it happens, though as I say I just wanted to clarify what I was getting at. Sorry.

[devon_metro]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Conductors yes above a certain level, TMs^‡(resolve) no.

Hmm. Do I take it that doesn't include donkey guards, then? 

Welcome to the forum, anyway, Donkey Guard! 

Is Donkey Guard not SDA?

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

so am i correct in thinking that the best way of doing it is to consult the guard before getting on the train

[thetrout]

In theory yes Relex. But as i've mentioned in previous threads, if I join a train without a ticket to travel, I will personally hunt down the TM^‡(resolve) and buy a ticket, even if it means tapping on the door of no return...!

Generally, If you find a TM to buy ticket, they are happy to sell you one. It shows that you want to pay the fare, not (as SWT^▸ (South West Trains) would say) "Blagging it to Basingstoke"

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

In theory yes Relex. But as i've mentioned in previous threads, if I join a train without a ticket to travel, I will personally hunt down the TM^‡(resolve) and buy a ticket, even if it means tapping on the door of no return...!

Generally, If you find a TM to buy ticket, they are happy to sell you one. It shows that you want to pay the fare, not (as SWT^▸ (South West Trains) would say) "Blagging it to Basingstoke"

i did the same i was running late at digby and didnt have time for the machine but as soon as i borded i went and found the guard who lets be honest would have been able to issue a penalty fair if he saw fit but as i went and found him he sold me a ticket

[cereal_basher]

When it comes to buying tickets before boarding I take a simple view.
If you can buy a ticket do or risk being charged the full price fare.
If you can't buy a ticket, get on and take a seat, it is then the railways duty to sell you the ticket on board or I'll buy it at my destination.

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

thats another mad thing when i went to cardiff last week the exeter to taunton leg was online for ^8.80 but onboard i paid 6.90

[Super Guard]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Conductors yes above a certain level, TMs^‡(resolve) no.

Hmm. Do I take it that doesn't include donkey guards, then? 

Welcome to the forum, anyway, Donkey Guard! 

Is Donkey Guard not SDA?

Yes  but as we had one user named 'Guard' I thought I better pick something else!

Chris:  Conductors have to take a certain level of sales before they start earning commission.

[devon_metro]

Does a "Donkey" Guard even count as a promotion 

Oh, who am I kidding, they are wonderful contraptions! 

[Super Guard]

Does a "Donkey" Guard even count as a promotion 

Oh, who am I kidding, they are wonderful contraptions! 

Payroll says yes so i'm happy  ... and yes you love them.... best beasts on the rails 

[6 OF 2 redundant adjunct of unimatrix 01]

Does a "Donkey" Guard even count as a promotion 

Oh, who am I kidding, they are wonderful contraptions! 

Payroll says yes so i'm happy  ... and yes you love them.... best beasts on the rails 

they are actually quite comfortable if you stand up lol

[vacman]

I think the matter is confused by the fact that many TM^‡(resolve)'s adopt an attitude that directly contradicts the rules. Often I hear HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) (and local) TM's on the run in to Bristol apologising for the fact that they have not been able to get down the train and sell tickets for some reason, and the fact that passengers will have to buy them at the barrier at TM and probably queue. Sometimes they are quite specific "Apologies to passengers at Nailsea and Yatton, who I've not been able to get to..."

Now, why would they apologise if everyone should have bought a ticket before boarding? With the possible exception of Weston Milton I suspect every station from Nailsea southwards in Somerset has some sort of ticketing facilities. This behaviour reinforces passengers' attitude that it is OK to board without a ticket because they can get one on the train, (as well as the obvious fact that day in, day out, people do still board and get sold a ticket without being told that they should have bought one before boarding. (Not everyone reads the back of tickets, and I have to say, on commuter services into Bristol, I've never heard a train manager ask why a ticket wasn't bought at the station .)           

The conductor is just appologising for not selling them tickets, nothing there says that he/she would not have charged them the full fare! I agree with most of you though, it annoys me when some people always sell passengers the cheap discounted tickets "no questions asked" as it's not fair on the people that do bother to queue up and buy tickets and its not fair on their "colleagues" that do their job properly and charge the full fare, what ilovetrains posted is exactly right, ask why they don't have a ticket then base your decision on their answer and their actions, generally i'm quite strict but even I use discretion, the other day a bloke joined at a quite major manned station but he wnet down to the TGS, I wasn't there, then up to the buffet to find me to buy a ticket, quite out of breath by this time, I did sell him a cheapy ticket with R/C discount but nevertheless informed him of the official line. had he just sat down and I find him then he would have had an SDR with no discount!

[cereal_basher]

By seeking out staff in my opinion it shows that you know and accept the rules and realise you are breaking them and you want to pay your fare. By sitting down it makes it seem like you are attempting to avoid the rules, hoping you won't get your ticket checked. I think in the case of a genuine reason for boarding without a ticket seeking out staff is the best advice. Not that I am staff, just based on observation and personal experience.