Fare Evasion

[whole diary]

[grahame]

The subject "Fare Evasion" has been removed from this board.  This is an interim measure at the moment.

In spite of requests from several moderators, certain member(s) who should know better about following the rules continued to post personal attacks ... and that has obliged me step in.

The whole fare system is over-complex and is difficult to understand, and whilst wholeheartedly agreeing that fare evaders should face appropriate actions and penalties, I find the assumption by certain staff that people are guilty until they prove themselves innocent to be unfortunate to say the least.  Where a suspected transgression is so marginal that the staff themselves can't agree on the validity of it, with some cheerfully selling tickets that others say aren't valid, my support is 100% with the passenger.  And that doesn't mean I'm coming down against the staff - I'm coming down against the system, and the attitude it breeds in some.

Us passengers aren't (and cannot) be as thoroughly informed as to what is and isn't valid in an overly complex system, and we all learn things every day.   I was shocked to read (different thread, same topic) the other day "The official line is that unless the journey started at an unmanned station with not working ticket machine then it is an offence to board a train without a ticket ..." Ouch. I live near an unmanned station that doesn't have a ticket machine at all, and I now learn that it is an offence to board a train there unless I have a ticket (how? no-one in the town sells them!).

I suspect that the person who posted this gem mis-stated the rule and (s)he should have written "The official line is that unless the journey started at an unmanned station where there is no working ticket machine then it is an offence to board a train without a ticket ..." but I tell you ... next time I'm catching a train I'll ask the conductor if I can buy on board BEFORE I step onto the train.

Is the rule as was stated by the original poster?  Or is this a case of that original poster - a staff member - getting in wrong?  If the rule is correct, I have unknowingly been breaking the rules for years and have never been stopped over it ... and if the statement as originally made is incorrect and when the staff don't get it right, what chance have the customers?

[Oxman]

The rule is simple: you must buy a ticket at your starting station if you are able to do so, from a ticket office if it is open, or a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) if it is working. If neither is the case (or if there are signs saying "Pay on the Train") then you are OK to board without a ticket.

The rule dates from a very early railway statute, I believe, and is used as the basis for penalty fare regulations.

[Phil]

The rule is simple: you must buy a ticket at your starting station if you are able to do so, from a ticket office if it is open, or a TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) if it is working.

The point that Graham is making here though is that neither case is applicable at his local station: there is no ticket office, nor is there a vending machine of any description (working or otherwise) - and never has been. It's sadly not that "simple" at all.

[Oxman]

Then he is unable to buy a ticket at his station and may board without a ticket - which is what I thought I had said!

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thanks, Phil, and Oxman.

From the official National Rail website, the actual wording they use is:

This does not apply if there was no ticket office at the station at which you began your journey or if the ticket office was closed and there was no ticket machine from which you could buy a discounted ticket.

and

Discounted tickets are not valid for travel in First Class, except for some First Class Advance fares with selected Train Companies and upgrades to First Class at weekends upon payment of the appropriate supplement (all subject to availability).

[grahame]

Then he is unable to buy a ticket at his station and may board without a ticket - which is what I thought I had said!

You did indeed, and Chris has confirmed that from the National Rail website.   However, an employee of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) who (as I understand it) is involved in ticket checks tells us "The official line is that unless the journey started at an unmanned station with not working ticket machine then it is an offence to board a train without a ticket ..." which says that you can only board without a ticket if the station is unmanned AND if there's a non-working ticket machine there.

I strongly suspect that this employee of FGW has it wrong.  However, as he has also stated here that he starts off with the assumption that everyone is trying to avoid payment, and that on certain trains 99% of people in First Class are trying to travel in there when they should not, I think it wise to check with the conductor before I board the train in future [[I can't recall there being a "please pay onthe train" sign]]. And that is even if it means delaying it for a few seconds (or a minute or two if this guy is the conductor and proceeds to sell me the ticket before I board).

As Phil says, the situation is not a simple one.  At the same station, we have had cases of rail replacement road services refusing to take unticketed passengers;  it would be really much more in everyone's interest for them to install a ticket machine and provide sufficient services for the ticket machine to be well used and justify its cost.

[Tickets Please]

Then he is unable to buy a ticket at his station and may board without a ticket - which is what I thought I had said!

You did indeed, and Chris has confirmed that from the National Rail website.   However, an employee of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) who (as I understand it) is involved in ticket checks tells us "The official line is that unless the journey started at an unmanned station with not working ticket machine then it is an offence to board a train without a ticket ..." which says that you can only board without a ticket if the station is unmanned AND if there's a non-working ticket machine there.

I strongly suspect that this employee of FGW has it wrong.  However, as he has also stated here that he starts off with the assumption that everyone is trying to avoid payment, and that on certain trains 99% of people in First Class are trying to travel in there when they should not, I think it wise to check with the conductor before I board the train in future [[I can't recall there being a "please pay onthe train" sign]]. And that is even if it means delaying it for a few seconds (or a minute or two if this guy is the conductor and proceeds to sell me the ticket before I board).

As Phil says, the situation is not a simple one.  At the same station, we have had cases of rail replacement road services refusing to take unticketed passengers;  it would be really much more in everyone's interest for them to install a ticket machine and provide sufficient services for the ticket machine to be well used and justify its cost.

its quite simple really, if you board at a station where ticket selling facilities were made available and were in working order (as with TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine)'s) without a ticket then you should expect to pay the full undiscounted single or return fare (National Conditions of Carriage condition 7 if I recall correctly) and not be entitled to any railcard or other discounts.

if you board at a station where the ticket office is closed, or there is no ticket office and there is no TVM or the TVM is not working or if there is a sign saying 'Pay On The Train' then you should be sold the full range of walk on fares applicable to the journey you wish to make including being able to use a railcard if its valid to discount the ticket you want.

I know a lot of Train Managers when selling tickets on board if asked for a ticket where a customer has started their journey at a station with a ticket office or a TVM in working order will ask "is there a reason you were unable to purchase a ticket before you joined the train" - listen to the answer and then decide if it is appropriate to sell the cheapest ticket available as if it had been bought before boarding or a full price non discounted ticket.

I guess it all depends on the answer given.....no effort made, attempting to walk past to the buffet or toilet and then asking for a ticket when asked, clearly pretending to be asleep etc etc probably isnt going to get you the cheapest journey.

Coming up to the TM^‡(resolve) or Conductor on the platform or seeking them out will get you far. Or if you were delayed on another train or there was a que at the ticket office (rule of thumb - say 10 people join at Chippenham, 9 have tickets 1 doesnt then there prob wasnt a que.....9 without and one with, all saying "there was a que" then there probably was) then you should be fine.

Basically its down to the TM as to what and how much discrection should be shown. Discrection is a personal thing and its not for a customer / passanger / traveller to dictate or decide what or if discrection should be shown. However, the hard and fast rule is NCOC's state, board at a station where you had an opportunity to buy then expect to pay full fare with no discount.

[John R]

I think the matter is confused by the fact that many TM^‡(resolve)'s adopt an attitude that directly contradicts the rules. Often I hear HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) (and local) TM's on the run in to Bristol apologising for the fact that they have not been able to get down the train and sell tickets for some reason, and the fact that passengers will have to buy them at the barrier at TM and probably queue. Sometimes they are quite specific "Apologies to passengers at Nailsea and Yatton, who I've not been able to get to..."

Now, why would they apologise if everyone should have bought a ticket before boarding? With the possible exception of Weston Milton I suspect every station from Nailsea southwards in Somerset has some sort of ticketing facilities. This behaviour reinforces passengers' attitude that it is OK to board without a ticket because they can get one on the train, (as well as the obvious fact that day in, day out, people do still board and get sold a ticket without being told that they should have bought one before boarding. (Not everyone reads the back of tickets, and I have to say, on commuter services into Bristol, I've never heard a train manager ask why a ticket wasn't bought at the station .)           

[devon_metro]

TMs^‡(resolve) get commision on tickets I believe!

[Mookiemoo]

TMs^‡(resolve) get commision on tickets I believe!

I know from a conversation I had - one lot do and the other lot dont - I cant remember whether its TM or Conductors that do or dont!

[Super Guard]

TMs^‡(resolve) get commision on tickets I believe!

I know from a conversation I had - one lot do and the other lot dont - I cant remember whether its TM or Conductors that do or dont!

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Conductors yes above a certain level, TMs no.  XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) TMs do on everything as far as I know.

[Btline]

Now, why would they apologise if everyone should have bought a ticket before boarding? With the possible exception of Weston Milton I suspect every station from Nailsea southwards in Somerset has some sort of ticketing facilities. This behaviour reinforces passengers' attitude that it is OK to board without a ticket because they can get one on the train, (as well as the obvious fact that day in, day out, people do still board and get sold a ticket without being told that they should have bought one before boarding. (Not everyone reads the back of tickets, and I have to say, on commuter services into Bristol, I've never heard a train manager ask why a ticket wasn't bought at the station .)           

I agree. There are posters saying: "if your board without a ticket, then you'll pay a ^20 fine."

Then I see a guard selling a ticket to a destination FROM WORCESTER - which has both a ticket office and a machine. No questions asked. No "why didn't you buy one at the station." And while this passenger is wasting the guard's time buying a ticket (a process which seems to take ages on those portable machines), I wonder how many passengers further down the train will not get asked; the experienced dodgers getting off at the next stop, who are at the front.

All this would be stopped by the installation of ticket barriers at major stations like Worcester, reducing the number of people who need to buy after boarding. Then the guard will not have his/her time wasted selling tickets from Worcester people, but checking the whole train between each stop to make sure they ask all the people from smaller stations like Pershore.

[Mookiemoo]

Now, why would they apologise if everyone should have bought a ticket before boarding? With the possible exception of Weston Milton I suspect every station from Nailsea southwards in Somerset has some sort of ticketing facilities. This behaviour reinforces passengers' attitude that it is OK to board without a ticket because they can get one on the train, (as well as the obvious fact that day in, day out, people do still board and get sold a ticket without being told that they should have bought one before boarding. (Not everyone reads the back of tickets, and I have to say, on commuter services into Bristol, I've never heard a train manager ask why a ticket wasn't bought at the station .)           

I agree. There are posters saying: "if your board without a ticket, then you'll pay a ^20 fine."

Then I see a guard selling a ticket to a destination FROM WORCESTER - which has both a ticket office and a machine. No questions asked. No "why didn't you buy one at the station." And while this passenger is wasting the guard's time buying a ticket (a process which seems to take ages on those portable machines), I wonder how many passengers further down the train will not get asked; the experienced dodgers getting off at the next stop, who are at the front.

All this would be stopped by the installation of ticket barriers at major stations like Worcester, reducing the number of people who need to buy after boarding. Then the guard will not have his/her time wasted selling tickets from Worcester people, but checking the whole train between each stop to make sure they ask all the people from smaller stations like Pershore.

Barriers at Slough didnt stop me on friday getting on without a ticket for thr journey I was taking - but of course your point is moot since I couldnt find the TM^‡(resolve) anyway - not sure what would have happened had there been an incident that needed attention but did not warrent the alarm.

[Chris from Nailsea]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) Conductors yes above a certain level, TMs^‡(resolve) no.

Hmm. Do I take it that doesn't include donkey guards, then? 

Welcome to the forum, anyway, Donkey Guard! 

[Tickets Please]

TMs^‡(resolve) get commision on tickets I believe!

They all get the same - its not based on personal takings.