FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

Dont you think the lighting is a bit dim now compared with before.  Perhaps FGW^▸ (First Great Western) are trying to pacify us into not noticing that the train is delayed by 30 minutes again 

I had my first trip in a newly refurbished First Class coach yesterday, and noticed the dimmer lighting straight away.  Ok if you're looking a computer screen etc, but I wonder how you'd get on trying to read a book or newspaper at night with no light coming through the windows?

[ChrisB]

Hmm....I know :-)

Try sitting there while it gets dark - alternatively, hold your hand over the light sensor at the end of the coach....:-)

[JayMac]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western) can't win. I remember all the posts on this and other forums, and complaints online after the previous refresh. So many of those complaints were about the lighting being too bright.

I personally hope the new 1st Class lighting and tinted windows makes it into Standard Class as well.

[ChrisB]

A personal light above each seat would cure everyone's grumbling....like they (used to) have in the 166 1st class. Not sure why they didn't install them in this refresh.

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

Individual reading lights, with armrest switches, were a feature of most builds of first class accommodation in the past.  From a maintenance point of view it's good they've gone - having to check 48 lights per carriage every night (or whenever) was tedious and time-consuming.

BNM, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) can win. There's no fundamental problem providing lighting which allows book reading while not being overpowering - most libraries, hotel lounges etc seem to manage it OK. If the light level is found to be a bit low there should be no problem fitting higher output light fittings or different diffusers. This isn't really a big issue: overall, as others have said, the interiors look good.

[stuving]

Individual reading lights, with armrest switches, were a feature of most builds of first class accommodation in the past.  From a maintenance point of view it's good they've gone - having to check 48 lights per carriage every night (or whenever) was tedious and time-consuming.

That maintenance issue should disappear now that LEDs are the lamp of choice.

Potentially. I add that as the makers still have to get the electronics design right, which with CFLs they often didn't.

[Chris from Nailsea]

From Newbury Today, an update on Alok Sharma MP^▸ (Member of Parliament)'s meeting with Mark Hopwood (MD, FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) and Claire Perry MP (Transport Minister):

Commuters to benefit from 3,000 extra seats

Passengers on crowded trains travelling through West Berkshire are set to benefit from extra seating.

Working with the Department for Transport, First Great Western has committed to converting first-class carriages in its fleet to increase the number of standard-class seats to help reduce overcrowding.

Before work began some of the trains had two-and-a-half first-class carriages and others had two first-class carriages.

When the work is completed, all high speed trains serving Reading will have one-and-a-half first-class carriages, adding 80 and 38 standard-class seats to each train respectively and delivering a total of an extra 3,000 standard-class seats every day.

The conversion of all trains with two-and-a-half first-class carriages to one-and-a-half first-class carriages has already been completed.

The announcement follows a meeting held by the MP for Reading West, Alok Sharma, the managing director of First Great Western, Mark Hopwood, and the rail minister and Devizes MP Claire Perry.

Mr Sharma said it was not acceptable to have passengers standing when there were empty first-class seats. He said: ^It was good to hear about the progress being made on converting first-class carriages into standard class, but I have asked First Great Western and the Department for Transport to go further and see what more can be done to speed up the conversion to standard-class seats, and on local stopping services, to consider removing first-class carriages entirely.^

Mr Hopwood confirmed that his company had already increased standard seats on local Reading services by 21 per cent and is two-thirds of the way through converting a first-class carriage into standard class on every high speed train serving Reading, meaning 2,000 of the extra 3,000 seats promised were already online.

He said: ^We appreciated the opportunity to take Alok through what we have done, and what we are planning to do to ease capacity for our Reading customers. In the past two years we have added around 7,000 additional seats to our Reading services at peak times, and we are always looking at new ways to secure more. However, given the growth in popularity of our rail services, it is a challenge keeping pace with demand. The long-term solution is, of course, the electrification of the main line, which will deliver bigger, faster trains for our customers. The first of these new trains will be introduced in 2018.^

[Super Guard]

From Newbury Today, an update on Alok Sharma MP^▸ (Member of Parliament)'s meeting with Mark Hopwood (MD, FGW^▸ (First Great Western)) and Claire Perry MP (Transport Minister):

Commuters to benefit from 3,000 extra seats

Passengers on crowded trains travelling through West Berkshire are set to benefit from extra seating.

Working with the Department for Transport, First Great Western has committed to converting first-class carriages in its fleet to increase the number of standard-class seats to help reduce overcrowding.

Before work began some of the trains had two-and-a-half first-class carriages and others had two first-class carriages.

When the work is completed, all high speed trains serving Reading will have one-and-a-half first-class carriages, adding 80 and 38 standard-class seats to each train respectively and delivering a total of an extra 3,000 standard-class seats every day.

The conversion of all trains with two-and-a-half first-class carriages to one-and-a-half first-class carriages has already been completed.

The announcement follows a meeting held by the MP for Reading West, Alok Sharma, the managing director of First Great Western, Mark Hopwood, and the rail minister and Devizes MP Claire Perry.

Mr Sharma said it was not acceptable to have passengers standing when there were empty first-class seats. He said: ^It was good to hear about the progress being made on converting first-class carriages into standard class, but I have asked First Great Western and the Department for Transport to go further and see what more can be done to speed up the conversion to standard-class seats, and on local stopping services, to consider removing first-class carriages entirely.^

Mr Hopwood confirmed that his company had already increased standard seats on local Reading services by 21 per cent and is two-thirds of the way through converting a first-class carriage into standard class on every high speed train serving Reading, meaning 2,000 of the extra 3,000 seats promised were already online.

He said: ^We appreciated the opportunity to take Alok through what we have done, and what we are planning to do to ease capacity for our Reading customers. In the past two years we have added around 7,000 additional seats to our Reading services at peak times, and we are always looking at new ways to secure more. However, given the growth in popularity of our rail services, it is a challenge keeping pace with demand. The long-term solution is, of course, the electrification of the main line, which will deliver bigger, faster trains for our customers. The first of these new trains will be introduced in 2018.^

Thank goodness for the Reading MP doing his election campaigning, we'd have had no idea this was happening otherwise 

[Jason]

Mr Sharma said it was not acceptable to have passengers standing when there were empty first-class seats.

I wonder what his thoughts are on passengers standing in first class vestibules when there are empty standard class sets ?




Edit note: Quote marks amended, for clarity. CfN.

[Rhydgaled]

The conversion of all trains with two-and-a-half first-class carriages to one-and-a-half first-class carriages has already been completed.

So all the full-buffet sets are now fully formed with 1x FO, 1x buffet first 5x TSO^▸ (The Stationary Office (now OPSI)) and 1x TGS now, with no odd formations or short-formed sets? But some micro-buffet sets still with 2x FO and/or odd formations?

Mr Sharma said it was not acceptable to have passengers standing when there were empty first-class seats.

I wonder what his thoughts are on passengers standing in first class vestibules when there are empty standard class sets ?

I would guess the answer would be something like this: "If it was all standard class, there would be nobody standing in first class vestibles, because there would be no first class vestibles to stand in". Although, a politition would probably put it less bluntly, or avoid answering the question.

[stuving]

I've been puzzled all along by this thread, and the number of posts apparently based on the belief that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have some devious scheme to lose money by reducing 1st class, and don't realise that it runs full on some trains.

It seems clear enough to me that the current programme is (as the press releases said) imposed and paid for by DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), and was decided by the government as politicians, not just by DfT officials. You may suspect Alok Sharma believes what he said ("it was not acceptable to have passengers standing when there were empty first-class seats"), while most of the government personally believe the opposite, but they are no longer prepared to stand up to defend that view publicly.

The issue arises, in broad terms, like this: 1st class over longer distances is not likely to run full at the new levels in HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), because it costs so much. (Advances don't alter the argument, as they will not be offered on trains with good 1st class loadings if the system is working properly.) Most passengers on trains that are full are London commuters, but only a few services have a lot of 1st class passengers. There has to be a train with a proper 1st class on it, i.e. a long distance one, and a long enough trip to make having a seat really valuable. But it also has to be short enough for the season to be affordable by a lot of people, with enough able and willing to pay the 1st class premium to get a seat. So Maidenhead is probably the best example of this, at least on FGW.

That is the key point here: politicians are no longer prepared to defend the right to pay extra to get a seat in a train that's full. If the capacity issues can't be solved by the current wave of infrastructure spending and the end of the associated  "DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) shortage", or if similar overcrowding spreads further into the network, similar pressure against 1st class may become more widespread.

Government policy and what they have said about Civil Service use of 1st class is an indicator of this trend in politicians' public stance. This telegraph piece today shows why they are so defensive about it - if even the Torygraph says it! But note the statistics; CS 1st class spend has gone down, but levelled off at about half what it was in 2010 - so not such a major loss for the railways as it seemed at first.

If the capacity issue is solved - and for Maidenhead that depends on a lot of passengers preferring Crossrail, for whatever reason - I wonder how willing the ToC will be to increase 1st class again. Or will there be less demand, if seats are now available in standard? But by then the semi-fasts may well be cut out for other capacity reasons. 

[Chris from Nailsea]

Thank goodness for the Reading MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) doing his election campaigning, we'd have had no idea this was happening otherwise 

That may have been why I posted that particular 'news' item, Super Guard. 

[ChrisB]

If the capacity issue is solved - and for Maidenhead that depends on a lot of passengers preferring Crossrail, for whatever reason - I wonder how willing the ToC will be to increase 1st class again.

I can't see the money being spent to ever convert them back again - but First Advance on many peak-ish trains might disappear.

[stuving]

If the capacity issue is solved - and for Maidenhead that depends on a lot of passengers preferring Crossrail, for whatever reason - I wonder how willing the ToC will be to increase 1st class again.

I can't see the money being spent to ever convert them back again - but First Advance on many peak-ish trains might disappear.

I was thinking about trains in general when I said that, not HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train), as SETs^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET)) and other EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) will be here by then. Incidentally, if we don't have a definitive statement about the catering fit for the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) SETs, presumably we also don't know what the class makeup will be - in both cases there was an initial version as costed, but they could be easily altered for an incoming franchisee and even more easily if not yet built.

But the retained West Country HSTs do look a candidate for separate treatment. They will serve the longest routes, and presumably will have more "proper" catering for that reason. At the start, there should be so many carriages to choose from that altering the make-up would not be costly. However, the high cost of 1st class on top of the price for such journeys will always be an issue.

But capacity is the key. If there is space in both classes, moving the boundary can be a commercial decision, together with setting the prices and service offering. Maximising profit like that, with no sneaky tricks, should produce something a lot of people want.

Similarly, First Advance has to pull in more cash from those who would never pay a full 1st class than it loses when sold to those who would have, so it is importance in setting prices or seating is marginal.

As soon as space runs out all that logic falls apart. However, that does not have to mean spare space on all trains. I would not be at all surprised if these long-distance (HST) services end up with compulsory reservation, in some form.

Perhaps it will all depend on the marketing approach adopted ...

[chrisr_75]

If the capacity issue is solved - and for Maidenhead that depends on a lot of passengers preferring Crossrail, for whatever reason - I wonder how willing the ToC will be to increase 1st class again.

I can't see the money being spent to ever convert them back again - but First Advance on many peak-ish trains might disappear.

Speaking from personal experience, the availability (only the more expensive advance variants are now available) of advance firsts has changed noticeably on 'shoulder services' since these changes were announced, certainly S.Wales to London. So much so that I now do my (weekly long distance) commute by the cheapest possible means - by car, which costs me about half the price of a typical standard advance return and takes me an hour less, per single journey!