FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[NickB]

The advantage that Virgin/East Coast have is that they don't have to stop for a commuter pick up/set down just 25 minutes before/after arriving/leaving London.

If they had to, I suspect the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) would have them doing an FGW^▸ (First Great Western)

Ummm, what about Watford Junction ?

[paul7575]

Watford Jn has full pick up only (northbound) and set down only (southbound) restrictions for Virgin services, and they do seem to be fairly rigorously enforced...

Paul

[JayMac]

Virgin is no use for London commuting to/from Watford Junction. Set down only southbound and pick up only northbound.

Milton Keynes would also not be a good comparator to Reading. It has no London bound Virgin services calling between 0714 and 0847 and no Euston departures calling MKC^▸ (Milton Keynes Central) between 1643 to 1843.

[ChrisB]

Quite. So if West Coast can avoid both Milton Keynes & Watford Junction for commuting use, why can't Great Western avoid Reading!

[grahame]

Quite. So if West Coast can avoid both Milton Keynes & Watford Junction for commuting use, why can't Great Western avoid Reading!

Well - they could always split the franchise into two - have one called - say "Great Western" which does the thing that Virgin train does and runs non-stop quite a long way, and one called - say "Thames Trains" which does the thing that London Midland does and runs out to Reading and Oxford and a bit beyond.

[JayMac]

Quite. So if West Coast can avoid both Milton Keynes & Watford Junction for commuting use, why can't Great Western avoid Reading!

Great Western don't have 110mph 8 car interurban trains to provide a peak commuter service.

Another major difference between Reading and Watford/Milton Keynes is the connections. Reading provides services to far more destinations which, I think, warrants the calling pattern of the long distance services. 

[chrisr_75]

Quite. So if West Coast can avoid both Milton Keynes & Watford Junction for commuting use, why can't Great Western avoid Reading!

Great Western don't have 110mph 8 car interurban trains to provide a peak commuter service.

Another major difference between Reading and Watford/Milton Keynes is the connections. Reading provides services to far more destinations which, I think, warrants the calling pattern of the long distance services. 

Assuming no rolling stock supply limitations, I think at least outbound expresses could non stop Reading as most destinations are served from another London terminus. Commuters and those wishing to interchange at Reading could be served by semi-fast services as per London Midland which would only increase journey times by a relatively small amount. I do hope for future users of this railway that there is a proper review/revamp of the timetable when IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) comes along.

Apologies, I've just contributed to this thread drifting again...!

[Southern Stag]

It's not just rolling stock limitations, its pathing limitations too. There's only so many trains that can run down the fast lines and through Reading, and most paths are already used by long distance services, and post IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) there will be an increase in the number of fast services. The limited capacity means there won't be enough fast commuter services to Reading to satisfy demand on there own. You use London Midland as an example. London Midland only operate 3 services an hour out of Euston on the fast lines in the Off-Peak period. 3 services on there own each hour would never be enough to serve Reading.

A significant number of people do change trains at Reading. For stations between Ealing Broadway and Twyford you need to change at Reading, travelling via London will probably take longer and will cost extra. Any passengers heading for stations towards Bracknell, Ascot etc or Guildford and Gatwick need to change at Reading. Similarly any passengers coming up from via Newbury and heading towards Swindon or Oxford and vice versa. I travel from Guildford to Cornwall fairly often. Changing at Reading is by far the easiest and quickest option. It would be the same if I was heading to Bristol or South Wales.

[chrisr_75]

It's not just rolling stock limitations, its pathing limitations too. There's only so many trains that can run down the fast lines and through Reading, and most paths are already used by long distance services, and post IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) there will be an increase in the number of fast services. The limited capacity means there won't be enough fast commuter services to Reading to satisfy demand on there own. You use London Midland as an example. London Midland only operate 3 services an hour out of Euston on the fast lines in the Off-Peak period. 3 services on there own each hour would never be enough to serve Reading.

A significant number of people do change trains at Reading. For stations between Ealing Broadway and Twyford you need to change at Reading, travelling via London will probably take longer and will cost extra. Any passengers heading for stations towards Bracknell, Ascot etc or Guildford and Gatwick need to change at Reading. Similarly any passengers coming up from via Newbury and heading towards Swindon or Oxford and vice versa. I travel from Guildford to Cornwall fairly often. Changing at Reading is by far the easiest and quickest option. It would be the same if I was heading to Bristol or South Wales.

It needs an in depth analysis of available data in order to look at the timetable and make suitable provisions for the arrival of the new trains. They did a radical overhaul for WCML^▸ (West Coast Main Line), so why not western mainline? Plenty of people who used to be able to get a direct train now have to change or experience slightly extended journey times and it seems to work pretty well and is a similar model employed in many other countries. There seem to be too many 'limitations' to find when the rail industry should be asking themselves how to solve and over come these limitations rather than viewing them as an impenetrable brick wall.

A common gripe amongst long distance travellers is the Reading commuters, so more effort ought to be made to separate these two flows of passengers, as has been done on the west coast.

A major advantage Lon Midland have is they tend to operate 8 car EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) vs FGW^▸ (First Great Western) DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) typically providing no more than a 6 car train, so already they're providing about 1/3 more capacity. My comments were, as stated, not based on current stock availability.

[ChrisB]

Well - they could always split the franchise into two - have one called - say "Great Western" which does the thing that Virgin train does and runs non-stop quite a long way, and one called - say "Thames Trains" which does the thing that London Midland does and runs out to Reading and Oxford and a bit beyond.

Say it's called "Crossrail", and you're getting close.

With the IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)/Bi-modes plus EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) and Crossrail, I'd say the time was ripe to start thinking almost outside the box and splitting the Reading commuters away like Virgin do with Milton Keynes pax in the peaks. You can't get a non-stop MK^▸ (Milton Keynes) train in the peak....and 12car EMUs are likely post-electrification. Some may even choose Crossrail.

[trainer]

On the subject of the thread (!) there was an item on ITV Westcountry news tonight (20/06/14) about all the extra seats to be enjoyed by long-suffering passsengers, including shots of the 'luxury seats' (their words) being 'ripped out' (also their words) over images if the careful removal of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) 1st Class seats, presumably at Kilmarnock. 

Available here for a short time:

http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/

[chrisr_75]

On the subject of the thread (!) there was an item on ITV Westcountry news tonight (20/06/14) about all the extra seats to be enjoyed by long-suffering passsengers, including shots of the 'luxury seats' (their words) being 'ripped out' (also their words) over images if the careful removal of FGW^▸ (First Great Western) 1st Class seats, presumably at Kilmarnock. 

Available here for a short time:

http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/

I think the comment about civil servants says it all!

I have also never seen an 'almost empty' first class carriage on a Swansea service departing Paddington, certainly not until the train has off-loaded in Cardiff.

And according to that report, the capacity is going down from 3 carriages (on every train, really?!) of First to 2 or 2.5...poor reporting, it's not exactly difficult to find out correct and accurate information!!

[thetrout]

The advantage that Virgin/East Coast have is that they don't have to stop for a commuter pick up/set down just 25 minutes before/after arriving/leaving London.

If they had to, I suspect the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) would have them doing an FGW^▸ (First Great Western)

Stevenage on East Coast?

[Timmer]

I have also never seen an 'almost empty' first class carriage on a Swansea service departing Paddington, certainly not until the train has off-loaded in Cardiff.

You could also say that about almost all services to the West Country.

And according to that report, the capacity is going down from 3 carriages (on every train, really?!) of First to 2 or 2.5...poor reporting, it's not exactly difficult to find out correct and accurate information!!

Agreed sloppy reporting there. Should be 1.5 and in some cases (pedant alert) 1.4 on services with full kitchen buffet provision. Interesting to note that they interviewed passengers at Reading where they were guaranteed to get comments about overcrowding and the 'empty' First Class carriages.

[John R]

I've had an email from FGW^▸ (First Great Western) inviting me to participate in a survey about first class travel. Amazingly, whilst it was a fairly long survey, with multiple questions about which end of the train first class should be, and multiple questions asking about onboard services, there was no question as to the presence or otherwise of a quiet carriage, and no free form box for "any other comments" at the end of the questionnaire.

I was left with the feeling the researchers were told "don't include anything on the quiet carriage" as we won't like the answer and won't do anything about it anyway.