FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

It's the best bodge job that can be achieved with the current stock.

Electrification/IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) will provide more paths and more seating - and a good chance to rearrange services for Reading commuters. Crossrail ought to offer a very cheap option (saving at least a ^grand on an annual ticket) which should tempt some. I agree with Reading-only shuttles too (every 15mins?) and pick-up only on the services out West will provide flexibility.

The days of turn-up & go for Reading pax ought to be limited....hopefully

[ChrisB]

I don't think I've *ever* seen *every* seat filled in 1st class, sorry....

I have a few times, especially at weekends, but isn't that the whole point? Pay more = get more space?! They would've done better making more cheap advance fares available and promoting them properly - the only cost involved then would be a small change to the booking systems and a bit of targeted marketing rather than spending millions polishing 40 year old tu...er, trains only for them to be scrapped as IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) comes along in a few years.

Oh, we're definitely talking peaks here. Weekend First will always fill at weekends, it's a no-brainer.

Yes, extra space within your one seat, not a pair....!!

[IndustryInsider]

It seems to me that the Reading commuters are the main problem, with many choosing to stand on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) rather than sit on a slower service, and then complaining about "having to stand"

Which slower services are these ones, then?  The ones that take well over twice as long and are absolutely packed to the rafters (worse than virtually all HSTs) when they get closer to London?  Sure, the Reading commuter might then get a seat, but calls further down the line would be leaving even more passengers behind than they often have to now at places like Hayes and Southall.  If you're referring to the semi-fast trains, then the same applies when they make their final call at Maidenhead and Slough - and they're not nearly frequent enough to take all the Reading commuters anyway.

Extra standard class seats won't solve the problem (the problem will never be fully solved, let's face it), but at least it'll help a little and the thousands of passengers that get their bum on a seat as a result of these works will be grateful I'm sure.  If it prevents someone from reading their broadsheet in comfort on a couple of trains a day, then I say that's worth it.

Also, let's not forget that it's not just Reading commuters that swamp these trains - there's the West Country trains on summer weekends, and I took a HST from Didcot to Bath a few weeks ago late Saturday morning and was astounded by the number of people squeezing on an already full train at Swindon/Chippenham heading to Bath and Bristol.

[ChrisB]

Rugby....

[bobm]

Rugby....

That's served by London Midland and Virgin isn't it? 

[IndustryInsider]

If you're referring to my reference about the train to Bristol, it had nothing to do with sport as far as I could ascertain.  Just Saturday shoppers and sightseers in their droves.

[thetrout]

I don't think I've *ever* seen *every* seat filled in 1st class, sorry....

I have on several occasions over the years... I'm thinking of The Cornishman and The Mayflower in particular. Sometimes First Class is packed and other times it's practically empty. I can't attribute it to the day of travel because whenever I use those trains it is always on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Monday and Friday is very rare and it could well be worse on those days.

07:04 Westbury - London Paddington I have seen paying First Class passengers unable to get a seat from Newbury onwards. (Very rarely use this service but seen it twice) Also on the 18:06 Paddington - Frome I've seen this too. But that is an Off-Peak Service as far as Newbury I believe. The time First Class was rammed was during Glastonbury Festival... So I'll say no more on that one.

All that being said; it is very fair to say there has been countless times I have had all of First Class to myself. i.e. All 2 or 2.5 Carriages worth... But then on trains such as the 21:29 Taunton - London Paddington or 18:00 / 18:59 Bath Spa - Taunton; where all three trains stop everywhere it's not too hard!

The next logical step on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) will be to reduce first class from a one and a half coaches to just one.

Definitely agreed. That would be an absolute disaster waiting to happen... CrossCountry 4 Car Voyager anyone? Certainly photos on here of First Class being well over capacity. Both myself and bignosemac have posted some.

Then of course I remember being the only First Class passenger with an FSR^▸ (First Scot Rail) Ticket who had my ticket checked and then the TM^‡(resolve) decided it would be a brilliant idea to Declassify First Class. I was invaded by a horde of Gatecrashers and the peace and quiet was shattered... Had there not have been other seats in Standard I'd have probably got over it... Coach F was virtually empty

But we all know that 4 Car Trains on the InterCity CrossCountry Route was an excellent idea to begin with which is why we have these wonderful Voyager objects

Don't get too used to it! Travelling yesterday morning, the only quiet carriage announcement was made for coach A in standard. The quiet coach stickers seem to now be disappearing rapidly from first class.

I too heard a similar announcement. Welsh Train Manager by any chance??

Yes also noticed the Quiet Carriage stickers disappearing rapidly. Also seen some consists with 2 Carriage L's... Wonderful if you have a seat reservation in Carriage L (I disregarded him and sat in Coach K)

"first complain that the half coach was regularly invaded by standard"

I disagree with that actually. But can see your point of view also. It seems to work ok for South West Trains**, East Midlands Trains, Transpennine Express*, London Midland**, GreaterAnglia**, First Capital Connect**, Southern**, Southeastern** and FGW^▸ (First Great Western)** in part.

In Particular I think on EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) and SWT^▸ (South West Trains) the difference between First and Standard Class in undoubtedly clear. I think some TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) could do with making it a little clearer on some routes where First Class is, but that is my opinion. Here are 2 examples for Southern 377s:

I should imagine Southern get many Penalty Fares from Foreign Travellers around Gatwick Airport who genuinely didn't realise that First Class was each end of a 377. A Spanish lady who really didn't understand the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Railway asked me for assistance and I was able to help with the little Spanish I knew as we boarded at train for Southampton at GTA. But she also didn't realise she was about to in First Class. Thankfully I was able to point this out to her in time. There were RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) in the next carriage

I had much less sympathy for the foul-mouthed college students who said "What the flipping heck [polite version] are you looking at the moment they got on the train?" and were talking about bunking the fare to Barnham... T'was satisfying to see Karma got her way

Then what doesn't help is Southern Declassify First Class between Clapham Junction and Watford Junction... So it's easily done to sit there at Kensington Olympia but the moment you past Watford Junction... Kaching!

* = These TOCs have First Class in the middle of a carriage on some units. (First Class is the filling of 2 Standard Class pieces of bread = Composite Carriage)
** = These TOCs have First Class in various parts of the train when sets are joined together.

If you're referring to my reference about the train to Bristol, it had nothing to do with sport as far as I could ascertain.  Just Saturday shoppers and sightseers in their droves.

Nothing unusual there then. It's chaos Rugby or no Rugby... Rugby Days it's much worse however.

First Class becomes a mosh/rave pit on 1A35 and 1A37 see the post in Frequent Posters.

<tongue-in-cheek=on>
Sometimes the Didcot Dunny procedure is more acceptable (The art of hiding from the hordes in a toilet until Didcot... There is a similar procedure class the Swindon s....... actually... nah! )
</tongue-in-cheek=off>

[NickB]

I don't think I've *ever* seen *every* seat filled in 1st class, sorry....

I have.  And FGW^▸ (First Great Western) pay compensation every time it happens.

[grahame]

A Spanish lady who really didn't understand the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Railway asked me for assistance and I was able to help with the little Spanish I knew as we boarded at train for Southampton at GTA. But she also didn't realise she was about to in First Class. Thankfully I was able to point this out to her in time. There were RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) in the next carriage

I had much less sympathy ...

Lest we forget, almost every carriage running hereabouts says "First" on it, and of course people who are new to the train service and / or speak little English are going to find it confusing.    If it's just "First" in words, it's OK on your standard ticket. If it's "1st" with numbers too, then you can't use it. Simples.

We may all know these obvious things on the forum ... but I'm reminded of the two young ladies I saw waiting at Swindon station for the South Wales train.   It came in and they stood patiently waiting for the doors to open ...

[TaplowGreen]

Possibly worth waiting until the conversion work is complete, before you all decide it was a terrible mistake.  In the meantime, there's bound to be a little disruption to the provision of first class whilst vehicles go in for refurbishment, as there was when the original refresh took place towards the end of the last decade.  As for taking the 'easy option', surely that would have been to do nothing and watch standard class crowding get worse and worse (with half empty first class carriages on the vast majority of trains) until the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s arrive?

Personally, I look forward to seeing the new First Class layout (and will comment good or bad then, not now) hoping it to be an improvement on the current service with free wi-fi long overdue!

By taking the easy option I meant converting 1st class accomodation to standard class rather than investing in more stock and adding a carriage...........although I appreciate that there are better informed people on here than me when it comes to running HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) with 9 carriages but I seem to recall there was one around not so long ago?

[the void]

By taking the easy option I meant converting 1st class accomodation to standard class rather than investing in more stock and adding a carriage...........although I appreciate that there are better informed people on here than me when it comes to running HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) with 9 carriages but I seem to recall there was one around not so long ago?

The issue is that there aren't any additional carriages available. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have been grabbing as many mothballed carriages as they can get their hands on (mainly old buffets) and converting them into standard class (all the 425xx) carriages. There is no secret store of unused carriages waiting to be used if only the 'penny pinching profiteers' would stump up the cash.

[Southern Stag]

I should imagine Southern get many Penalty Fares from Foreign Travellers around Gatwick Airport who genuinely didn't realise that First Class was each end of a 377. A Spanish lady who really didn't understand the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Railway asked me for assistance and I was able to help with the little Spanish I knew as we boarded at train for Southampton at GTA. But she also didn't realise she was about to in First Class. Thankfully I was able to point this out to her in time. There were RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) in the next carriage

I had much less sympathy for the foul-mouthed college students who said "What the flipping heck [polite version] are you looking at the moment they got on the train?" and were talking about bunking the fare to Barnham... T'was satisfying to see Karma got her way

Then what doesn't help is Southern Declassify First Class between Clapham Junction and Watford Junction... So it's easily done to sit there at Kensington Olympia but the moment you past Watford Junction... Kaching!

I saw a team of Southern RPIs target the First Class compartments between Clapham Junction and East Croydon recently. They didn't even check the rest of the train but went straight for First Class. I think in the two compartments I saw (I was in the middle of an 8-car set so 2 compartments back on to each other) they issued 6 Penalty Fares, and there's only 20 seats in those two First Class sections combined. The problem of course is that the ^20 Penalty Fare probably isn't much of a deterrent if you only get caught once in a blue moon. The First Class policy is a bit confusing on many Southern services. 377s working 'Metro' services have declassified First Class, but sometimes the CIS^▸ (Customer Information System) screens say that and sometimes they don't. The new 377/6 trains have by far the worst First Class markings on any of the fleet, on some units it really is unclear whether it is First Class or not. 95% of the services they run don't have First Class but I bet people are caught out on those 5% of services which do.

[chrisr_75]

By taking the easy option I meant converting 1st class accomodation to standard class rather than investing in more stock and adding a carriage...........although I appreciate that there are better informed people on here than me when it comes to running HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) with 9 carriages but I seem to recall there was one around not so long ago?

The issue is that there aren't any additional carriages available. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have been grabbing as many mothballed carriages as they can get their hands on (mainly old buffets) and converting them into standard class (all the 425xx) carriages. There is no secret store of unused carriages waiting to be used if only the 'penny pinching profiteers' would stump up the cash.

Is it beyond the realms of comprehension that someone could dust off the blue prints for mark 3 coaches and build a few new ones? It would represent a much more sustainable approach to dealing with capacity issues and would provide new rolling stock for the west of England services once the IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) is rolled out elsewhere on the great western network

[chrisr_75]

I too heard a similar announcement. Welsh Train Manager by any chance??

Yes, 7.58 ex Swansea yesterday, boarded at Bridgend. Was one of the more 'enthused' of the Swansea based train managers...

[tom m]

I think it is unreasonable to expect reading commuters or any other TV stations with a fast service to paddington to use the local stopping services. what would ypu do if you were in the same boat?

I think there is much to be said for the British airways  model on short haul European services, where the  standard of travel is not dictated by seat space but standard of service and flexibility of booking as it gives them much greater operational flexibility.