FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[Southern Stag]

I was comparing returns as they're generally much better value, sorry I didn't make that clear.

[paul7575]

Coz the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) told them to?

There may be a pattern developing.  The new Greater Anglia direct award franchise also includes reduction of first class provision, in their case by replacement of the first class in 7 catering vehicles with standard.  The press release says something about 24 FC^‡(resolve) taken out, 44 Standard in.

It may be that what they do on the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) now is no guide to the future...

Paul

[a-driver]

All this is though is a short term fix, the government needs to start looking at long term capacity needs.  It's all well and good converting First Class to Standard but realistically how long is that going to provide a solution, 5 maybe even 10 years and we will be back to square one given the growth in rail travel.
You can't keep putting fares up to deter people from travelling by rail. 

[ellendune]

All this is though is a short term fix, the government needs to start looking at long term capacity needs.  It's all well and good converting First Class to Standard but realistically how long is that going to provide a solution, 5 maybe even 10 years and we will be back to square one given the growth in rail travel.
You can't keep putting fares up to deter people from travelling by rail. 

With electrification, cross rail and IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s won't we have extra capacity by then?

[a-driver]

All this is though is a short term fix, the government needs to start looking at long term capacity needs.  It's all well and good converting First Class to Standard but realistically how long is that going to provide a solution, 5 maybe even 10 years and we will be back to square one given the growth in rail travel.
You can't keep putting fares up to deter people from travelling by rail. 

With electrification, cross rail and IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s won't we have extra capacity by then?

Yes, they'll be additional capacity, especially if the signalling system is upgraded to ERTMS^▸ (European Rail Traffic Management System.) but I'm not personally convinced the IEP's will provided the massive increase in capacity everyone is expecting.  It won't guarantee everyone travelling via Paddington in the peak a seat.  Once all the work is completed I don't think it'll provide enough of an increase in capacity past the next 10 years and when the trains return to being overcrowded what is the next solution?  There doesn't seem to be any long term plan, there is no room for growth past what the IEP will offer.

Undoubtably though, users of the CrossRail services will see the biggest increase in capacity.

[Btline]

Exactly, it's like the  "widening on the cheap" on the m42/m25 motorways (converting hard shoulders into peak extra lanes)

It's just so desperate politicians can get a photo shoot in a hard hat and say "look I'm doing something"... before going home and filling in their expenses.

This ludicrous policy will decimate the income brought in by wealthy business travellers and drive people onto the roads and onto planes.

Sorry if you think that's an exaggeration and that I'm being a "fairy", but I think it will happen.

[ellendune]

Exactly, it's like the  "widening on the cheap" on the m42/m25 motorways (converting hard shoulders into peak extra lanes)

It's just so desperate politicians can get a photo shoot in a hard hat and say "look I'm doing something"... before going home and filling in their expenses.

This ludicrous policy will decimate the income brought in by wealthy business travellers and drive people onto the roads and onto planes.

Alternatively it is an honest attempt to do something to address the capacity issues in advance of the IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) becoming available.  This government is not normally accused of discrimination against the wealthy.

[John R]

Exactly, it's like the  "widening on the cheap" on the m42/m25 motorways (converting hard shoulders into peak extra lanes)

I think the peak hours only system has been proved to work well. Unfortunately it wasn't cheap enough for the government so the latest versions have done away with the hard shoulder completely, and are, in the eyes of many people including the motoring organisations, likely to be proved to be very dangerous.

It's one thing breaking down on a very congested slow running motorway with lower speed limits in place and another doing so when the motorway is free flowing and the national speed limit in force.

[TaplowGreen]

Exactly, it's like the  "widening on the cheap" on the m42/m25 motorways (converting hard shoulders into peak extra lanes)

It's just so desperate politicians can get a photo shoot in a hard hat and say "look I'm doing something"... before going home and filling in their expenses.

This ludicrous policy will decimate the income brought in by wealthy business travellers and drive people onto the roads and onto planes.

Alternatively it is an honest attempt to do something to address the capacity issues in advance of the IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) becoming available.  This government is not normally accused of discrimination against the wealthy.

It may be an honest attempt, it may just be window dressing, either way its a pretty feeble & unimaginative effort to address an issue which has been ongoing & getting worse for many years.

[Network SouthEast]

Forgive me if this has been posted previously,  but at 27 pages long....

Anyway, there's been a staff briefing about the new 1st class config on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train). Here's the gist:

Electric door on the composite 1st/std coach separating the two classes. It will be push button operated rather than pressure pad on the floor.

New, more comfortable, head rests with some kind of movable side rest. Mention of a similar arrangement to that of headrests on Beoing aircraft.

Privacy screens between the backs of groups of seats.

[Network SouthEast]

By the way, of course we won't have enough capacity in 10/20/50/100 years if passenger figures keep growing. That's a fact of life. But how can you plan for 50 years time? Look at how the railway and country has changed since the 1955 modernisation plan! Back then Britain was a very different place to now in terms of industry, people in work, finances etc...

I think the Network Rail RUSs^▸ (Route Utilisation Strategy) take the right approach to long term planning.  For example they talk about schemes that aren't viable now or even in 10 years for the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line), but which might be viable if things carry on the way they are by 2020.

[Rhydgaled]

All this is though is a short term fix, the government needs to start looking at long term capacity needs.  It's all well and good converting First Class to Standard but realistically how long is that going to provide a solution, 5 maybe even 10 years and we will be back to square one given the growth in rail travel.
You can't keep putting fares up to deter people from travelling by rail. 

With electrification, cross rail and IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.)'s won't we have extra capacity by then?

With IEP, yes extra capacity on the electric routes (2+8 IC125 to 9-car new trains), but some diesel routes will see SHORTER trains with LESS capacity (2+8 IC125 to 5-car new trains). Yes, the 5-cars will sometimes run in pairs to give 10-cars (with the same capacity as the 9-car 'electric' units, due to having two kitchens (for 1st class passengers only, judging by the current draft layouts) and four cabs), but as far as I can tell they haven't ordered nearly enough 5-cars to have many 10-car formations.

[John R]

New, more comfortable, head rests with some kind of movable side rest. Mention of a similar arrangement to that of headrests on Beoing aircraft.

How about some flat beds? 

[ChrisB]

Electric door on the composite 1st/std coach separating the two classes. It will be push button operated rather than pressure pad on the floor.

Oooh, I hope this is a sliding door & not an swing/hinged door then - the Crossrail trains have a hinged door separating the vestibule & 1st class seats that swings into the 1st accommodation & will hinder those sat in seats the other side....

[Network SouthEast]

Oooh, I hope this is a sliding door & not an swing/hinged door then - the Crossrail trains have a hinged door separating the vestibule & 1st class seats that swings into the 1st accommodation & will hinder those sat in seats the other side....

They'll be sliding doors.

By the way, I think you're referring to the Thameslink trains internal layout, not Crossrail.