FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[Electric train]

Another check on the 7.08 HST^▸ (High Speed Train) maidenhead to London. Its a miracle!!
25 evicted with much huffing and puffing.

The problem with the First Class on HSS^▸ (High Speed Services) is the inconsistency of the ticket checks, some TM^‡(resolve)'s make all standard ticket holders who are standing in the First Class vestibules move others don't.  When it come to upgrading tickets again some allow tickets to be upgraded and some don't I have seen the same passenger on the same train on a number of occasions most time they can upgrade then occasionally its declined.

The 165/6's might as well de classify the whole fleet if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) cannot consistently police the First Class then do away with it remove it from the timetable and don't sell First Class tickets, for places like Maidenhead with a very limited HSS service use upgrade system

[SDS]

Remember people.
I am thinking of Byelaw 19 which is a 'Level 3' standard scale offence. This can also be applied to the vestibule areas of first class.

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
 
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

NRCoC^▸ (National Rail Conditions of Carriage) 20 allows any authorised officer or agent of the railway to withdraw any ticket if any rules have been broken. Failure to hand over then becomes a Byelaw 18 (2) offence.

NRCoC 39 allows Penalty Fares to be charged. However most TMs^‡(resolve) are NOT authorised collectors for the purposes of the Penalty Fare Regulations and as such cannot charge PFs^▸ (Penalty Fare). Same as most TEs are also not authorised collectors.

In regards to issuing a PF at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) for the people in first on standard tickets, yes it can be done as long as they have come from a station within that relevant zone. If the person states they've come from beyond DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) then they cannot be PF'd.

You could demand the full open fare, but they would only be paying what they would have paid if stopped/caught on board.

However if you do stop a few of the regulars who do this, threaten to withdraw their season ticket, warn them etc, then they will be straight onto the iPad writing threatograms to the MD and "I was picked on guv" Emails to their local MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament), Boris, etc. FGW^▸ (First Great Western) always seem to take the customer service view and as such is very unlikely to allow season tickets to be withdrawn despite the clear attempt at fare evasion.

[ChrisB]

In regards to issuing a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) for the people in first on standard tickets, yes it can be done as long as they have come from a station within that relevant zone. If the person states they've come from beyond DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) then they cannot be PF'd.

Presumably if their season ticket shows any station east of DID, it doesn't actually matter where they say they boarded surely?

[SDS]

There is an argument you can use at some stations. However this argument would be irreverent on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train).

[John R]

Surely not if you've done a full ticket check west of Didcot. Then you will know that any offenders boarded the train at Didcot or further east.

As for the letters to MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament), etc, I would suggest FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ought to be much more upfront and ask politicians etc whether they condone fare evasion or not. Surely it's hard to say you were picked on when you were one of 28 treated identically? I'd have thought passengers would have thought " fare cop", pay the penalty, and make sure they don't do it again for risk of prosecution.

[broadgage]

Surely not if you've done a full ticket check west of Didcot. Then you will know that any offenders boarded the train at Didcot or further east.

As for the letters to MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament), etc, I would suggest FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ought to be much more upfront and ask politicians etc whether they condone fare evasion or not. Surely it's hard to say you were picked on when you were one of 28 treated identically? I'd have thought passengers would have thought " fare cop", pay the penalty, and make sure they don't do it again for risk of prosecution.

I fear that most MPs and there voters would take the view that of course they dont support fare evasion IN GENERAL, but that they feel that a little discrection should have been shown in this particular case.
Anyone writing to an MP and/or to the press is most unlikely to say "I prefer first class but dont expect to pay"!
It is much more likely that they will have at least a half decent excuse, probably along the lines of

I was pregnant
I was ill
I have some obscure allergy, issue or phobia that means I CANT go in standard
I had a special needs child or adult with me
I dont normally, but the train was exceptionaly crowded
I had only been there a moment to rest my feet
I had an important meeting with someone in first.

And so on.

Despite the sob stories, I still think that FGW should be more vigourous in enforcement.

[thetrout]

In regards to issuing a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) for the people in first on standard tickets, yes it can be done as long as they have come from a station within that relevant zone. If the person states they've come from beyond DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) then they cannot be PF'd.

Presumably if their season ticket shows any station east of DID, it doesn't actually matter where they say they boarded surely?

But does that take into account a split ticket? for example: Weston-Super-Mare - DID with an SOS (Standard Anytime Single) and a Season from DID - SRA^» (Strategic Rail Authority - about) (Stratford London) Which of course with a combination of a season doesn't require the train to stop at DID.

[ChrisB]

I'm sure you'd be the first to produce such a split ticket!

[thetrout]

I'm sure you'd be the first to produce such a split ticket!

TBH^▸ (to be honest) I'm not so sure, grahame posted a while back about using a Farnborough Split Ticket with a Season as well around the Iver area I think it is?

That being said I have often been told by Guards "Oh that's the first one of those I've ever sold and unless I see you again probably the last!"

[ChrisB]

I use them very regularly....season plus split(s)

[grahame]

In regards to issuing a PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) for the people in first on standard tickets, yes it can be done as long as they have come from a station within that relevant zone. If the person states they've come from beyond DID^» (Didcot Parkway - next trains) then they cannot be PF'd.

Presumably if their season ticket shows any station east of DID, it doesn't actually matter where they say they boarded surely?

First Great Western's web site says ...

If you join a First Great Western train at any of the designated penalty fares stations and travel to your final destination without a ticket, or a permit to travel, you will have to pay a penalty fare.

Now - although the penalty fare area from Paddington runs out at Didcot, the next one starts at Swindon and it's all about where you join the train.  As I read it, you can be PF'd on the way into Paddington even if coming from West of Didcot unless you joined the train at Kemble, Stroud, Stonehouse, Weston Milton or have come from South Wales  (or there was no way for you to buy a ticket before boarding, such as a broken TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) and no booking office).

[SDS]

If you join the train in one PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) zone lets say Zone B (West of Swindon) and then go to Paddington which is Zone A then you cannot, in accordance with the Penalty Fare scheme be charged a Penalty Fare. You will just be stung for a SOS with no possibility of parole discounts. However if you have a split ticket, which splits at say Didcot, you will be wholly within Zone A and be able to be charged the PF.

However having tried to search for copies of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) PF maps I came across this FoI. It appears that FGW have not got approval, or the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) were not consulted, over the displayed text for authorised collectors badges. After having deciphered the text I would guess that because the FGW/SWT^▸ (South West Trains)/SN/FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) policies do not mention the other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) in their own policies then the authorised collector would not be allowed to collect on their behalf.

Prior to receiving your request, the Department was not aware of the text shown in your photograph appearing on a badges worn by an FGW Authorised Penalty Fare Collector. The Department proposes to establish the facts about your allegation at the earliest possible opportunity. If it is found necessary to do so, appropriate action will be taken to ensure that FGW complies with its penalty fares scheme.

This was the last application to vary the PF scheme to the DfT
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/182962/response/455110/attach/3/Annex%201.pdf

All links posted are publicly accessible documents.

[thetrout]

Going off topic - Mods, worth moving some of these posts to that Penalty Fares thread in Fares Fair?

However having tried to search for copies of the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) PF^▸ (Penalty Fare) maps I came across this FoI. It appears that FGW have not got approval, or the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) were not consulted, over the displayed text for authorised collectors badges. After having deciphered the text I would guess that because the FGW/SWT^▸ (South West Trains)/SN/FCC^▸ (First Capital Connect) policies do not mention the other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) in their own policies then the authorised collector would not be allowed to collect on their behalf.

According to the Standard in 2009: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/10-ways-to-avoid-penalty-fares-on-trains-6762684.html

There are other lines on which one operator has penalty fares and another does not (see box). If, for instance, you are asked for a penalty fare at the excess fares office at Euston and you have arrived on a train run by Virgin, not London Midland, you do not have to pay the penalty.

<snip>

Check also whether the person asking you for a penalty has been authorised by the operator whose train you travelled on. At stations served by more than one train company, even where they both have penalty fares schemes, it may be that the people on the ticket barrier are authorised by one operator but not by the operator you used.

So I am inclined to agree with your interpretation SDS pad

Incidentally this makes a very interesting case for Warminster - Bristol Temple Meads where a Penalty Fare could be charged at Bristol Temple Meads for the 11:01 and 11:33 services run by First Great Western. But could not be charged on the 11:12 operated by South West Trains

Finally from the IPFAS website:

A fair and independent assessment.
Because a Penalty Fare is the reverse of the normal "innocent until proved guilty" British justice system, a passenger may want to appeal against a penalty fare if they think that it has been charged incorrectly or unfairly.

My emphasis again in bold... Which just about says it all... Cynical trout is too cynical today

[stebbo]

Personally, it seems a bit rich to charge a penalty fare if someone's in the vestibule between First and Standard given the overcrowding on some services.

Mind you my wife came down from Durham to Cheltenham on Cross-Country recently on a cheap first class weekend deal and the train was so rammed that (a) no-one could use the toilets as you couldn't get out the seats; (b) the buffet trolley was stuck up one end of the train; and finally (c) the conductor couldn't even get through to check the tickets.

[ChrisB]

Hmm - assuming we're talking HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) here now, I think it's ok - it's not as if there isn't a buffet (buffer) between Standard & 1st for any overflow.

Its those that set off for the doors at the front in readiness for alighting at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) that annoy me - especially when they start traipsing through just after leaving Reading sometimes....