FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[Timmer]

A rare inspection of tickets in 1st class this morning yielded 28 (yes, twenty eight!) offenders. All turfed out without penalty to stand in the vestibule.

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) want to reduce provision they will need to radically alter their game regarding inspections. Otherwise that's 1/3rd of the new provision going to standard class holders.

I would hope that FGW are aware of this happening and will ensure more regular checks of what's left of First class take place once reductions in FC^‡(resolve) accommodation are made. Though it would be good if regular checks were being made now.

[johoare]

A rare inspection of tickets in 1st class this morning yielded 28 (yes, twenty eight!) offenders. All turfed out without penalty to stand in the vestibule.

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) want to reduce provision they will need to radically alter their game regarding inspections. Otherwise that's 1/3rd of the new provision going to standard class holders.

I would hope that FGW are aware of this happening and will ensure more regular checks of what's left of First class take place once reductions in FC^‡(resolve) accommodation are made. Though it would be good if regular checks were being made now.

I have made FGW aware on several occasions (as I am sure NickB has done) but they just aren't interested. Regularly I see the same ticket inspector  get off at Maidenhead as we are all getting on.. Just occasionally it would be good if he stayed on..

[Super Guard]

A rare inspection of tickets in 1st class this morning yielded 28 (yes, twenty eight!) offenders. All turfed out without penalty to stand in the vestibule.

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) want to reduce provision they will need to radically alter their game regarding inspections. Otherwise that's 1/3rd of the new provision going to standard class holders.

I would hope that FGW are aware of this happening and will ensure more regular checks of what's left of First class take place once reductions in FC^‡(resolve) accommodation are made. Though it would be good if regular checks were being made now.

I have made FGW aware on several occasions (as I am sure NickB has done) but they just aren't interested. Regularly I see the same ticket inspector  get off at Maidenhead as we are all getting on.. Just occasionally it would be good if he stayed on..

That could be the guard for the Marlow service, so unlikely to stay on?

[johoare]

A rare inspection of tickets in 1st class this morning yielded 28 (yes, twenty eight!) offenders. All turfed out without penalty to stand in the vestibule.

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) want to reduce provision they will need to radically alter their game regarding inspections. Otherwise that's 1/3rd of the new provision going to standard class holders.

I would hope that FGW are aware of this happening and will ensure more regular checks of what's left of First class take place once reductions in FC^‡(resolve) accommodation are made. Though it would be good if regular checks were being made now.

I have made FGW aware on several occasions (as I am sure NickB has done) but they just aren't interested. Regularly I see the same ticket inspector  get off at Maidenhead as we are all getting on.. Just occasionally it would be good if he stayed on..

That could be the guard for the Marlow service, so unlikely to stay on?

Indeed it could be but it doesn't make it right.. Ticket checks between Maidenhead and Paddington are so rare it's an event when one happens. On fellow passenger told me the other day that there is another passenger who has boasted that he has now travelled into London for a whole year in first class on a Standard class ticket.. Because he can... How many times do we need to tell FGW before they actually do something? (hypothetical question btw - same as "how long is a bit of string")

[Southern Stag]

It's never going to change. The majority of Maidenhead-London services are Driver Only Operated as result of a decision taken by NSE^▸ (Network South East) when the Turbos were introduced to dispense with the need for guards and saving money. With the exception of the DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) scheme in the Glasgow area, all DOO operations rely on occasional ticket checks on trains by RPIs^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) with more regular checks at barriers at stations. I can't foresee regular ticket inspections ever being carried out on DOO services as it just undermines the whole cost saving from getting rid of Guards in the first place. Checks on HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) should be more regular, but in my experience it is relatively rare to have a ticket check between the last two stations on a service, especially where it is a relatively short distance like Maidenhead-London.

[NickB]

Another check on the 7.08 HST^▸ (High Speed Train) maidenhead to London. Its a miracle!!
25 evicted with much huffing and puffing.

Q: if we were on the roads the powers-that-be would never miss an opportunity to charge people for such an offence. Why do railways not charge/fine as opposed to just continually moving people along. Surely that is an inefficiency?

[broadgage]

I would agree that those caught in first without a valid ticket should be charged or "fined".
Could not a penalty fare be imposed, which is a fine in all but name, or at least be charged the full first fare to the next stop if they move, and to their destination if they do not move.

If imposing any penalty is considered unduly harsh for a first offence, then at least take names and addresses, and prosecute for any repeat.

In the longer term though I fear that first class will be abolished on most routes.
Enforcement is patchy as others report, and unless enforcement results in penalty fares or other income, then the enforcement costs money.


As has been previously disscussed, first class provision is being reduced on existing stock, and is minimal on the new proposed trains.

Now that MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) cant use first at the public expense, many MPs are calling for reductions in first class provision, or for it to be "opened up" at times of disruption or crowding.

IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion), MPs should be allowed first, not because they deserve it, but to stop them wingeing about reducing/removing/declassifying first.

[Rhydgaled]

I can't foresee regular ticket inspections ever being carried out on DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) services as it just undermines the whole cost saving from getting rid of Guards in the first place.

Which is why I'm confused about the introduction of call-for-aid buttons under the TSI-PRM^▸ (Persons with Reduced Mobility) regulations. When I e-mailed FirstGW about these call-for-aid buttons (in relation to IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) working in multiple in particular), I got a very vauge responce along the lines of: we may or may not decide to have a train manager in each unit. In theory, for the call-for-aid buttons to be useful their always needs to be a member of staff available to respond.

I think:
TSI = Technical Specification for Interoprability
PRM = Persons of Reduced Mobility

[John R]

One of the problems with cracking down on abuse of first class is that as soon as you start going through any sort of penalty process on board, everyone else who shouldn't be there will leave. So you might catch one or two but the others get away.

However, as I understand it, an authorised official is entitled to take possession of your season ticket if it is being incorrectly used. So, how's this for a strategy. (I'm thinking of HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s, as I believe that was the service that Nick B referred to 28 people being kicked out of.)

Post a couple of staff  (and maybe a couple of BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) in case things get ugly) at the point where first becomes standard. Then a couple of minutes after the train has left Maidenhead (or wherever it's last stop is towards London), start checking tickets. Withdraw the season ticket from anyone not entitled to sit in first, and tell them to go to a specified place at Paddington when the train arrives. As the other passengers try to get up and move to standard they are caught by the staff positioned at the interface with standard.

Then at Paddington they are penalty fared, and told that if they are caught again they will be prosecuted. I'd also suggest that if 28 people have to be processed then that will take some time and they will also be late for work. An interesting one to explain why. In the reverse direction, tell people to get off at the first stop where staff would be waiting, then they would have the added inconvenience of having to wait for a later service.

Anyone who only had a day ticket would have to be dealt with on the spot, as the way the approach works I by removing someone's season ticket, ie something of value from them.

There was a story a couple of years ago of a commuter who lent his season ticket to his son who got caught. The ticket was retained, and IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) not returned to the owner for several months, during which he had to pay again for his travel. It's that story on which I'm basing my assumption that tickets can be retained.

[broadgage]

One of the problems with cracking down on abuse of first class is that as soon as you start going through any sort of penalty process on board, everyone else who shouldn't be there will leave. So you might catch one or two but the others get away.

However, as I understand it, an authorised official is entitled to take possession of your season ticket if it is being incorrectly used. So, how's this for a strategy. (I'm thinking of HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s, as I believe that was the service that Nick B referred to 28 people being kicked out of.)

Post a couple of staff  (and maybe a couple of BTP^▸ (British Transport Police) in case things get ugly) at the point where first becomes standard. Then a couple of minutes after the train has left Maidenhead (or wherever it's last stop is towards London), start checking tickets. Withdraw the season ticket from anyone not entitled to sit in first, and tell them to go to a specified place at Paddington when the train arrives. As the other passengers try to get up and move to standard they are caught by the staff positioned at the interface with standard.

Then at Paddington they are penalty fared, and told that if they are caught again they will be prosecuted. I'd also suggest that if 28 people have to be processed then that will take some time and they will also be late for work. An interesting one to explain why. In the reverse direction, tell people to get off at the first stop where staff would be waiting, then they would have the added inconvenience of having to wait for a later service.

Anyone who only had a day ticket would have to be dealt with on the spot, as the way the approach works I by removing someone's season ticket, ie something of value from them.

There was a story a couple of years ago of a commuter who lent his season ticket to his son who got caught. The ticket was retained, and IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) not returned to the owner for several months, during which he had to pay again for his travel. It's that story on which I'm basing my assumption that tickets can be retained.

Agree entirely. Sounds labour intensive but would presumably not need to be done that often, and would at least partialy pay for itself by the penalties thus raised.

[Umberleigh]

Another check on the 7.08 HST^▸ (High Speed Train) maidenhead to London. Its a miracle!!
25 evicted with much huffing and puffing.

Q: if we were on the roads the powers-that-be would never miss an opportunity to charge people for such an offence. Why do railways not charge/fine as opposed to just continually moving people along. Surely that is an inefficiency?

I agree with these evictions, however, unfortunately it only takes a few of them to send an irate email to DaFT^» (Department for Transport - critical sounding abbreviation I discourage - about) and bingo - More FC^‡(resolve) declassified

[ChrisB]

However, as I understand it, an authorised official is entitled to take possession of your season ticket if it is being incorrectly used. So, how's this for a strategy. (I'm thinking of HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s, as I believe that was the service that Nick B referred to 28 people being kicked out of.)
.
.
There was a story a couple of years ago of a commuter who lent his season ticket to his son who got caught. The ticket was retained, and IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) not returned to the owner for several months, during which he had to pay again for his travel. It's that story on which I'm basing my assumption that tickets can be retained.

Not sure.

The reason it was legally removed in your final paragraph is that seasons aren't legally transferable, and as the holder had lent it to his son, he broke that rule. He was extremely lucky to get it back, and I'm sure having to pay again taught him a valuable lesson!

Sitting incorrectly in 1st class isn't the same. Whether legally the ticket can be withdrawn (it is rail property, not the owners property) is a question I hope those with better knowledge of railway T&Cs than I can answer...but I do like the idea, especially as it can all be 0planned well in advance. Agreed labour intensive, but do it a couple of times & social media should do the rest. THe off-train 'bookings' need to obviously be done platform side of barriers....

[John R]

Agree entirely. Sounds labour intensive but would presumably not need to be done that often, and would at least partialy pay for itself by the penalties thus raised.

Yes, fairly labour intensive, but I think you can safely assume that once someone has paid a penalty fare (oh, and of course the upgrade fare for their journey), and knows their details are taken and next time it's a prosecution, then they are unlikely to try it again. So if you can catch around 30 offenders in one hit, then it won't take too many exercises to sort the problem.

[John R]

THe off-train 'bookings' need to obviously be done platform side of barriers....

Not necessarily - after all they don't get their ticket back until they have been seen to, so if they just walk off then FGW^▸ (First Great Western) have both their ticket and their details.  I would suggest that when the ticket is removed the passenger is given a very brief receipt, marked with the ticket number, an explanation of why it has been taken, and this would enable barrier staff to pass them through to wherever they are required to report to. (They would have course been briefed in advance.) It would also say that if they just walk away then the first action would be more severe than a penalty fare.
 

[John R]

Conditions of Carriage

20. Withdrawal of tickets
If you do not comply in a material way with any Condition that applies to the use of a ticket, staff or agents of any Train Company may withdraw the ticket and you will be given a receipt.

So I think that's fairly clear cut.