FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

Yes, it has definitely been confirmed.

They are all being reduced to 1.5 coaches of 1st class.

[Umberleigh]

I think that this is a really bad idea! (even as a person who rarely uses FGW^▸ (First Great Western) 1st class)

Has it been confirmed?

When IEP^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.) comes in, perhaps they will be 9 or 10 car, with two 1st class coaches and extra 2nd class seating.

From what I've found online, IEP also 1.5 for 1st, although the seating more akin to a Voyager, and so greater capacity.

Agree it is a really bad idea. The first time I have to stand (probably coming back from London) will be the last time for me. I'm not prepared to pay a premium for substandard service, and so will drive to Heathrow if needs be.

[ChrisB]

I don't think there will be a capacity problem - just higher fares as the 1st Advances will be restricted and/or cancelled all together on high peak HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)

[NickB]

I can assure you that there will be a capacity problem on all commuter HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s as there are few seats available in the morning rush-hour.  (For specifics I am talking about the 7.08 Maidenhead to Padd that starts at Worcester)

Two things gripe me about this:

1) Having a 1st class ticket is not a birth right or select invite-only club.  Anyone can go and buy one if they feel squashed in Standard.  That is what I did.  I got fed up of standing so coughed for the upgrade.  Its ^2 a day for a eastbound only.

2) In my humble opinion, and again referring to journeys to and from Maidenhead, the capacity problems have been created or at least worsened by FGW^▸ (First Great Western)'s own making.  Before I get my head bitten off let me explain.

In the morning the 7.08 and 7.32 are very busy (standing only), but this wasn't the case when the 7.16 was an HST.  As soon as that HST was converted to a 5 car turbo passengers relocated to the other services and placed greater pressure on those.

In the evening the 18.18 and 19.05 are stupidly busy, with 75%+ of travellers disembarking at Maidenhead.  Why?  Because there is a 45min gap at peak without a direct service.  Why? Because back in 2010 the 18.33(?) was converted from an HST to a stopping turbo.

If the'wrong trains' are provided at the 'wrong time' then passengers will move to other services and then they become overcrowded.  Listen to what your passengers have been telling you for the past 4 years and you might find the services are less-overcrowded and you don't need to spend ^millions stripping out your principal revenue generating services.

[BandHcommuter]

I can assure you that there will be a capacity problem on all commuter HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s as there are few seats available in the morning rush-hour. 

I don't think that's true of all commuter HSTs. The 0603 and 0616 trains from Westbury to Paddington (which are effectively Kennet Valley commuter services) generally leave Reading with 20-30 people standing in each standard class carriage, but with first class little more than half full (and yes I am sad enough to have stood on the platform at Reading and counted). We can probably all come up with our own anecdotes about packed or empty first class coaches, and any solution to mitigate current peak overcrowding in standard class is likely to result in winners and losers.

I guess that any initiative to replace first class seats with standard will increase the overall number of seats available, so fewer people will be standing in the peaks. The down side is the reduction in first class availability, which may cause some existing first class passengers problems, and even to downgrade or cease to travel - I would imagine that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) took account of this in developing the options and business case for the change.

[NickB]

Neither of those trains stop at Maidenhead so my point stands that it should be possible to alleviate capacity problems by supplying the right trains at the right times to busy stations (like Maidenhead) where overcrowding exists.

[ChrisB]

I can assure you that there will be a capacity problem on all commuter HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s as there are few seats available in the morning rush-hour. 

I would imagine that FGW^▸ (First Great Western) and DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) took account of this in developing the options and business case for the change.

Indeed they would have done and, just as Maidenhead pax have migrated to other services, so might any 1st class customers wanting to guarantee a seat?

I can assure you that there will be a capacity problem on all commuter HST's as there are few seats available in the morning rush-hour. 

You don't know though just how many have 1st Advance tickets. Cut those & there may well be seats for others paying full fare? Personally, I have little sympathy for those on Advance tickets - that ticket has always been a 'offer' which can be withdrawn or varied at any time.

Two things gripe me about this:

1) Having a 1st class ticket is not a birth right or select invite-only club.  Anyone can go and buy one if they feel squashed in Standard.  That is what I did.  I got fed up of standing so coughed for the upgrade.  Its ^2 a day for a eastbound only.

Exactly - you have a choice to upgrade.

In the evening the 18.18 and 19.05 are stupidly busy, with 75%+ of travellers disembarking at Maidenhead.  Why?  Because there is a 45min gap at peak without a direct service.  Why? Because back in 2010 the 18.33(?) was converted from an HST to a stopping turbo.

Can't disagree there - Maidenhead ought to have at least a 30min service for the number of pax wanting to travel, if not a 20min service. I can follow up with the timetable guys but I suspect its a lack of stock problem at that time - and if they were to supply you with a train, somewhere else just as needy loses out.

If the 'wrong trains' are provided

That's tough, though if there is a train & it's just the wrong 'type'. Go be squashed if there are seats elsewhere at the same-ish time. I think there are far worse problems that the 'wrong type'

[James]

Neither of those trains stop at Maidenhead so my point stands that it should be possible to alleviate capacity problems by supplying the right trains at the right times to busy stations (like Maidenhead) where overcrowding exists.

Nick i agree that more trains need to be supplied, however First Great Western keeps insisting that they can not run more trains since there is a rolling stock issue.
Now how many times do people need to hear. These problems because of the lack of rolling stock will continue until brand new trains 'if you can call them that' will arrive sometime in history but hasn't been agreed what year it will arrive as the railway cant make their minds up  

[ChrisB]

There's also the question of pathing. There may not be a path to put in a train at that time. It may mean juggling others, in which case, why should Maidenhead have priority over any other station (assuming their level of service is similar at present)

[Southern Stag]

Pathing is likely to be a major constraint to stopping more trains at Maidenhead in the peak. To provide fast services you either have to stop a service on the main line, which means the train behind it will potentially have to run later, and the knock on effect is that you might end up losing a path on the main lines. Otherwise you call services on the relief lines at Maidenhead, with them crossing over to the main lines into London, but that requires a conflicting move either with the down relief towards London or the up main from London. That can also be hard to path, especially in the peak.

[adc82140]

Of course they could also discontinue the "Eastbound Only" first class season tickets. I used to have one of those when I commuted in to London- I certainly wouldn't have paid the full whack first fares.

[thetrout]

1) Having a 1st class ticket is not a birth right or select invite-only club.  Anyone can go and buy one if they feel squashed in Standard.  That is what I did.  I got fed up of standing so coughed for the upgrade.  Its ^2 a day for a eastbound only.

Completely agree. A few of my friends have asked me in the past 'how to I get a First Class ticket?' Pretty simply I just ask for one.

I don't like being packed into a small place like a sardine. I detest it that much in fact I'd rather lock myself in a toilet just for some personal space. And I don't particularly like those either!

That being said I have often wondered if FGW^▸ (First Great Western) were to reduce First Class fares or create a more incentive offer say ^20 Upgrade like Chiltern Business Zone for off peak trains how the passenger flows would change. I know several people for example who would willingly part with an extra ^10 - ^30 for the privilege of being able to work at a Table, have leg room, spacious surrounding etc

Personally, I have little sympathy for those on Advance tickets - that ticket has always been a 'offer' which can be withdrawn or varied at any time.

I disagree with the opinion on this. The price paid for the ticket is irrelevant. I've had this 'argument' before where someone said they had paid more for their ticket so had more right to the seat I was sat in.

In actuality we both had the same ticket (First Anytime Day Single) but I had a railcard discount applied to it. So for the sake of argument we had actually bought the same product, I had just used a discount card...

Having looked at the prices of First Advance Tickets for peak trains, I can find several First Advance Tickets for peak trains where the price is very close to that of the First Anytime Single product. Maybe ^5 - ^15 difference at most.

So I wonder if those passengers on First Advance Tickets do so because they want to save that extra tenner? How many of those will buy the FOS/FDS and pay more through a stealthy price increase? Or how many will say "You take an offer away from me, you lose my custom, bye?"

That being said. For a Super Off-Peak Train priced at ^19.15 Walkup Standard Class on the 19:13 Westbury - London Paddington vs ^82.50 First Class an increase of 330% I think that answers why some book a First Advance.

Personally if I wanted to travel to London on the day, I'd spend ^42.25 and travel First Class via Salisbury on South West Trains! ^42.25 is reasonable for an on the day Super Off Peak Train. ^82.50 which is an ANYTIME ticket, so would be the same price if you travelled on the 07:04 is not a reasonable ask in my opinion for the 19:13

Flipping things around, ^82.50 is a reasonable price for the 07:04 when you look at the Standard Anytime Single Ticket being ^51.80 That is fairly reasonable as it's a 59.26% Increase.

Using that same Percentage Increase I should be charged a First Class Super Off Peak Single on the 19:13 ^30.50! Now how many people would pay ^30.50 to travel First Class on that 19:13 on the day? I would certainly be one of them ladyfriend trout would, alot of my friends would, colleagues would etc...!

Disclaimer: Prices quoted include railcard discount and are valid via Newbury or Warminster-Salisbury only.

Edit: Corrected Bold Font Sections. tt.

[ChrisB]

Oh, I fully support introduction of off-peak & super off-peak 1st class tickets....where capacity allows.

[bobm]

An unexpected side effect of the bad weather and suspension of the sleeper services is a change to the opening hours of the First Class lounge at Paddington.

For the immediate future it closes earlier in the evening, but for the first time in a while it is now open on Saturdays.

[NickB]

A rare inspection of tickets in 1st class this morning yielded 28 (yes, twenty eight!) offenders. All turfed out without penalty to stand in the vestibule.

If FGW^▸ (First Great Western) want to reduce provision they will need to radically alter their game regarding inspections. Otherwise that's 1/3rd of the new provision going to standard class holders.