FGW 1st Class - ongoing discussion of the benefits and their apparent reduction

[whole diary]

[adc82140]

They were using Chiltern as an example of a standard class only railway:

I can see the point- That line crosses some of the most affluent areas of the country, yet there was not a public outcry when they did away with First Class.

Chiltern are obviously still making money despite the loss of the First Class fares.


However-

They are largely not an intercity operator (they've fudged the issue a bit with Business Class in the MK3s)

Did anyone really miss having First Class on a turbo or Clubman- it's not the same as an HST^▸ (High Speed Train)


So could the way forward for FGW^▸ (First Great Western) be the removal of First Class from the Class 165/166s (and the 180s) and a carriage an a half of non bookable Business Class seats on HSTs with an onboard upgrade payable. That would avoid any situations with having to refund passengers where no Business Class seats are available, and also the tricky situation with First Class fares from stations that have the majority of services Turbo formed with a scattering of HSTs (like Maidenhead for example)

[stuving]

What strikes me as being absent from the discussion on the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) this morning, or indeed in this thread, is that the justification for having a premium class works if a train isn't full, but can't be sustained if it (i.e. standard class) is full. So a large part of the answer to Charlie Stayt's baffled question "don't the railways know if they would make more or less money [from cutting 1st]" is that it depends on how many trains run full and standing, and that's hard to predict. Not only can it vary for any one service, but of course a train will run many, some full but most not. Basically, if all trains carry a bit of space around, TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) can reasonably use some of it for additional levels of service. If not, that choice comes at the cost of someone not getting a seat (or not at that time).

More generally, provision of first class (and catering) has to be looked at as part of the capacity issue, and how to react to excess demand. Do you remember the incensed passenger on the C5 series saying FGW^▸ (First Great Western) ought not to be allowed to runs trains as full as hers? Well, there's a well-proven solution to that - compulsory reservation. This applies on all French TGVs^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse), will apply on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)), and could now technically be done on pretty well all trains (though in practice it would only be "long distance", i.e. end-door stock). 

Ultimately, the industry (from DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) down) has to be able to say "our strategy for dealing with excess demand/full trains, in the absence of an infrastructure solution (coming later, or never), is..." and tie all these things together. I don't think that's been done, at least not clearly and briefly enough - or have I missed it?

[ChrisB]

I reckon the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) see the way forward of increasing capacity is to steadily remove 1st Class.

Personally, I have no problem with this - but there are certainly those who if they can't travel 1st Class, will take to their cars.

Statistically probably only in the 100s, so overall car use won't increase that much in % terms.

But yes, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) will prob reduce/remove 1st Advances to cope, especially in the peaks

[johoare]

I know that there will be many reasons why this won't work. But how about compulsory seat reservations in First Class, starting at Carriage H.. Any empty First Class carriages can then be declassified back to Standard to create more space.. This would work if there was a full load of First Class passengers as can happen on some trains but making lots more room for Standard class passengers on trains where there are few passengers in First.

Obviously in return the Standard class passengers have to promise not to stand in the vestibule at either end of any carriage with First Class Passengers in  

[didcotdean]

There were complaints locally about Chiltern abandoning first class. It certainly hasn't cured the problem of overcrowding on their peak services, which can only be done ultimately by over-provision of seats in the off-peak if you are going to run fixed formation trains.

Airlines do handle this by having flexible partitioning between their economy and business class seating where they have it, however the problem with this approach on the railways is that the maximum demand time for first class is at the same time as maximum general demand.

Yesterday on the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) twitter there was already someone asking about how to claim compensation for standing as a FC^‡(resolve) passenger - alongside one complaining that there were 8 (sic) empty first class carriages on his train at the weekend.

[ChrisB]

Chiltern are obviously still making money despite the loss of the First Class fares.

Chiltern are losing money. THey have stated this on Twitter.

But I surmise this is deliberate on Arriva/DBs^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) part in minimising their tax in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

[paul7575]

...compulsory reservation. This [...] will apply on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)),

Where's your evidence for that then?

There is no such rule for domestic services on HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel), it is a Eurostar only requirement for border control purposes.

Paul

[stuving]

...compulsory reservation. This [...] will apply on HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)),

Where's your evidence for that then?

There is no such rule for domestic services on HS1^▸ (High Speed line 1 - St Pancras to Channel Tunnel), it is a Eurostar only requirement for border control purposes.

Paul

I admit that was intentional provocation on my part - I've not seen anything. Perhaps I ought to have said "logically this [...] will apply on HS2", the logic being that HS2 is planned to be more of a separate network (and less of an overlay) than in France or Germany. TGVs^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse) were initially very separate, but have evolved into being "normal" long-distance trains. SNCF^▸ (Societe Nationale des Chemins de fer Francais - French National Railways) continue to say that reservation is necessary, though I suspect there must be some exceptions. ICE was, at least from pretty early, more of an overlay (and some have surprisingly many stops). I've not come across compulsory reservation as a general rule; similarly I suspect it may be enforced on some trains.

Domestic trains on HS1 are a bit of a red herring - distinctly commuter trains, using HS1 just "because it is there". The real point, I think, is will there be a standard rule or policy on HS2? As I see it, this is a proper subject for regulation, as a monopoly supplier gains financially from overcrowding, up to a pretty high level.

[ChrisB]

Do they allow standing on TGVs^▸ (Train a Grande Vitesse)? THat may well be the reason for reserved seats.

[broadgage]

I know that there will be many reasons why this won't work. But how about compulsory seat reservations in First Class, starting at Carriage H.. Any empty First Class carriages can then be declassified back to Standard to create more space.. This would work if there was a full load of First Class passengers as can happen on some trains but making lots more room for Standard class passengers on trains where there are few passengers in First.

Obviously in return the Standard class passengers have to promise not to stand in the vestibule at either end of any carriage with First Class Passengers in  

I cant forsee obligatory reservations in first  class working.

Often the whole purpose of paying the full first class fare is flexibility, and the likelehood of getting a seat.
Full first fares are very expensive, both compared to other modes of transport, and compared to fares payable overseas.
I certainly would not want to pay that much without full flexibility and a near certainty of getting a seat.

The only regular journey on which I pay the full first class fare is Padington to Taunton, I aim to catch the Golden Hind and enjoy the Pullman, but if I miss the train then I like knowing that I can take the 19-03, which also has a Pullman.

[johoare]

Well yes.. It was an alternative idea to the amount of First Class seats being reduced by a lot?

[John R]

Agree. As a 1st class commuter, I wouldn't want to have to book a seat every day. Just wouldn't be practical.

[trainer]

Returning from a holiday on Sunday, I decided to travel First Class from Reading to Bristol using the Weekend First option.  No-one having checked my ticket by Didcot, I went to the buffet for my free tea and having offered to pay there and then, the unsmiling attendant accepted my intention to purchase an upgrade and dispensed the drink. (Other staff were but a few feet away in what I take to be the Train Manager's cubby hole.)  Later, I waved my ticket and money at a passing uniformed member of staff, who told me he'd 'send him down, sir.'

As has been pointed out before, an unintended benefit of First Class travel at weekends is that it's very difficult to actually pay for it.  Having made two attempts, I gave up and rode on my Off Peak Standard Single


Edited to correct punctuation

[JayMac]

Conversely, this past weekend, having seen the beery hoards of Stags and Hens heading to Bath from Swindon, I plonked myself in Coach F after boarding at Swindon heading to Bristol.

A FGW^▸ (First Great Western) staffer (off duty TM^‡(resolve), passing back) appeared immediately, recognised me, and told me the actual TM would be through presently.

When the actual TM appeared he bumped me up free of charge. I had my tenner ready, but it was politely declined. He said that his colleague had told him that I'm a regular traveller and FGW get enough money from me, to allow for the odd free weekend upgrade. 

[johoare]

Agree. As a 1st class commuter, I wouldn't want to have to book a seat every day. Just wouldn't be practical.

Unless there were a lot less First Class seats in the future (which sounds like it might happen)?